All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3
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I argue that Owens did not 'play the ball', which is covered in 11.7 as well. It was a purely instinctive move (like shielding youself from a kick) and as soon as he realised he put his hands in the air.
Poite's mistake was not playing advantage. I don't agree that it 'cost the ABs a try', but it did cost them a solid attacking opportunity. If he had played advantage, he could have negated the calls for a penalty because it would be clear the Lions gained no advantage from Owens play.
I can totally understand the arguments you make, and I can see how you can come to the conclusion that Owens 'played the ball'. I don't think what he did constitutes that, and I think Poite was fair enough to give him the benefit of the doubt.
@barbarian said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
I argue that Owens did not 'play the ball', which is covered in 11.7 as well. It was a purely instinctive move (like shielding youself from a kick) and as soon as he realised he put his hands in the air.
Poite's mistake was not playing advantage. I don't agree that it 'cost the ABs a try', but it did cost them a solid attacking opportunity. If he had played advantage, he could have negated the calls for a penalty because it would be clear the Lions gained no advantage from Owens play.
I can totally understand the arguments you make, and I can see how you can come to the conclusion that Owens 'played the ball'. I don't think what he did constitutes that, and I think Poite was fair enough to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Which would be fine if he did that in real time.
But he made about 3 mistakes, each compounding the other, as soon as he let himself be talked into going to the TMO.
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@barbarian I can see the argument you are making, but trying to work out whether a player meant to catch a ball is going down an incredibly subjective route - you pretty much have to be a mind reader. If he catches it, he played at it. If he makes no attempt to catch it, he didn't. Granted when he caught the ball he wasn't immediately aware he was offside, but he still caught it. I could easily make an argument that a smarter player would have been running back onside with his hands in the air.
It's been ruled that way forever, and from here on it will continue to be ruled that way. To change the way it is ruled for one penalty just because it will decide a game is outrageously inconsistent.
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What did people think of Liam Williams running into Dagg?
Behind our pathetic counter ruck, this was next most annoyed I got in the game.
Spend 3 weeks planting obstruction stories via the media then run straight at a player without the ball. Cynical. Diving in the box levels of cheatiness.
After TMO taking the effort to check it, I was mighty annoyed it wasn't an nz penalty for either foul play or professional foul.
@Rapido For me the most annoying thing was Webb throwing the ball into Crockett to milk the penalty. Most SH refs wouldn't have penalised Crockett for that. Another annoying thing was the failure of the officials to review Sexton's head high on Barrett. Much worse than Kaino's tackle.
But nothing annoys me more than our own inability to finish all the chances we created.
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I argue that Owens did not 'play the ball', which is covered in 11.7 as well. It was a purely instinctive move (like shielding youself from a kick) and as soon as he realised he put his hands in the air.
Poite's mistake was not playing advantage. I don't agree that it 'cost the ABs a try', but it did cost them a solid attacking opportunity. If he had played advantage, he could have negated the calls for a penalty because it would be clear the Lions gained no advantage from Owens play.
I can totally understand the arguments you make, and I can see how you can come to the conclusion that Owens 'played the ball'. I don't think what he did constitutes that, and I think Poite was fair enough to give him the benefit of the doubt.
@barbarian said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
argue that Owens did not 'play the ball', which is covered in 11.7 as well.
He caught the ball = He played at it.
It's that simple.
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I argue that Owens did not 'play the ball', which is covered in 11.7 as well. It was a purely instinctive move (like shielding youself from a kick) and as soon as he realised he put his hands in the air.
Poite's mistake was not playing advantage. I don't agree that it 'cost the ABs a try', but it did cost them a solid attacking opportunity. If he had played advantage, he could have negated the calls for a penalty because it would be clear the Lions gained no advantage from Owens play.
I can totally understand the arguments you make, and I can see how you can come to the conclusion that Owens 'played the ball'. I don't think what he did constitutes that, and I think Poite was fair enough to give him the benefit of the doubt.
@barbarian said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
I argue that Owens did not 'play the ball', which is covered in 11.7 as well. It was a purely instinctive move (like shielding youself from a kick) and as soon as he realised he put his hands in the air.
Poite's mistake was not playing advantage. I don't agree that it 'cost the ABs a try', but it did cost them a solid attacking opportunity. If he had played advantage, he could have negated the calls for a penalty because it would be clear the Lions gained no advantage from Owens play.
I can totally understand the arguments you make, and I can see how you can come to the conclusion that Owens 'played the ball'. I don't think what he did constitutes that, and I think Poite was fair enough to give him the benefit of the doubt.
So you admit Poite made a mistake in blowing his whistle and not allowing the advantage, but still reckon he made the right decision? What kind of bizarre logic is that?
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@Rapido For me the most annoying thing was Webb throwing the ball into Crockett to milk the penalty. Most SH refs wouldn't have penalised Crockett for that. Another annoying thing was the failure of the officials to review Sexton's head high on Barrett. Much worse than Kaino's tackle.
But nothing annoys me more than our own inability to finish all the chances we created.
@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rapido For me the most annoying thing was Webb throwing the ball into Crockett to milk the penalty. Most SH refs wouldn't have penalised Crockett for that. Another annoying thing was the failure of the officials to review Sexton's head high on Barrett. Much worse than Kaino's tackle.
But nothing annoys me more than our own inability to finish all the chances we created.
@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rapido For me the most annoying thing was Webb throwing the ball into Crockett to milk the penalty. Most SH refs wouldn't have penalised Crockett for that. Another annoying thing was the failure of the officials to review Sexton's head high on Barrett. Much worse than Kaino's tackle.
But nothing annoys me more than our own inability to finish all the chances we created.
No, not for me. IMO. Those are just things you have to accept and they go both ways. I have no major issues with refs in real time making mistakes, or even technically correct (but a bit annoying) decisions like that the Crockett one.
You win some you lose some, first penalty v Warburton was harsh etc etc
On the Sexton high tackle. I assume the TMO checked it out, he signalled advantage, so was probably just shoulder and no further sanction (the play led to Lamape try). Ironically that period of play also included A Smith attempting to milk a penalty by passing it into a lion at the back of the ruck. But this was totally ignored by Poite, then he picked it back up, reset, and Beauden kickpassed for the try.
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@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rapido For me the most annoying thing was Webb throwing the ball into Crockett to milk the penalty. Most SH refs wouldn't have penalised Crockett for that. Another annoying thing was the failure of the officials to review Sexton's head high on Barrett. Much worse than Kaino's tackle.
But nothing annoys me more than our own inability to finish all the chances we created.
@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rapido For me the most annoying thing was Webb throwing the ball into Crockett to milk the penalty. Most SH refs wouldn't have penalised Crockett for that. Another annoying thing was the failure of the officials to review Sexton's head high on Barrett. Much worse than Kaino's tackle.
But nothing annoys me more than our own inability to finish all the chances we created.
No, not for me. IMO. Those are just things you have to accept and they go both ways. I have no major issues with refs in real time making mistakes, or even technically correct (but a bit annoying) decisions like that the Crockett one.
You win some you lose some, first penalty v Warburton was harsh etc etc
On the Sexton high tackle. I assume the TMO checked it out, he signalled advantage, so was probably just shoulder and no further sanction (the play led to Lamape try). Ironically that period of play also included A Smith attempting to milk a penalty by passing it into a lion at the back of the ruck. But this was totally ignored by Poite, then he picked it back up, reset, and Beauden kickpassed for the try.
@Rapido Well if the TMO thought it was a hit to the shoulder, then he has to be blind. It was clearly a head high. I thought our local broadcasters did not do us any favours either. They didn't replay the Sexton tackle but chose to immediately replay Kaino's head high hit.
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The first half of barbarian's aritcle is well written, but by the end it reads a bit like the old "It's Mabo, it's the constitution, it's the vibe..." bit from the Castle.
11.7 is the law and despite what Lions supporters (and AB haters) will have you believe the law is actually relatively clear and has been ruled consistently since day dot including a reasonably famous RWC QF.
Yes, winning tests on technical penalties isn't ideal - but when you are on the receiving end like Wellington 2000, the 2015 RWC QF or the Lions in Wellington last week it's all well and good.
Try again.
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I hate halfbacks passing into a player to milk a penalty, IMO is is against the spirit of the game given most of the time they don't need to, I don't recall Smiths one alluded to above (but know he does it too) but I was fuming at Murray's one, was pathetic (as are many like that)
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I hate halfbacks passing into a player to milk a penalty, IMO is is against the spirit of the game given most of the time they don't need to, I don't recall Smiths one alluded to above (but know he does it too) but I was fuming at Murray's one, was pathetic (as are many like that)
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@taniwharugby Yeah, agreed but I think it was actually Webb.
@akan004 halfbacks, all look (sound) the bloody same
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I hate halfbacks passing into a player to milk a penalty, IMO is is against the spirit of the game given most of the time they don't need to, I don't recall Smiths one alluded to above (but know he does it too) but I was fuming at Murray's one, was pathetic (as are many like that)
@taniwharugby the worst one i saw was Genia threw it a mile forward to hit one of our guys, and the ref payed it! fuck i blew up!
The worst offence by a halfback all game was definitely TJP waving his arms at the ref instead of picking the ball up. Fuck that guy.
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@Rapido Well if the TMO thought it was a hit to the shoulder, then he has to be blind. It was clearly a head high. I thought our local broadcasters did not do us any favours either. They didn't replay the Sexton tackle but chose to immediately replay Kaino's head high hit.
@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rapido Well if the TMO thought it was a hit to the shoulder, then he has to be blind. It was clearly a head high. I thought our local broadcasters did not do us any favours either. They didn't replay the Sexton tackle but chose to immediately replay Kaino's head high hit.
How could you tell that from the tv angle though? They didn't replay it.
So if it is like the Whitelock over the shoulder high tackle penalty, then no further sanction. I may be giving Ayoub too much credit but I'm going to assume they checked it out.
I think the local broadcaster deserves praise through this series. Eg can't imagine a Taylor / Vunipola late tackle comparison montage like in the second test from some overseas broadcasts.
Better TV producers breed better fans.
Eg The Irish TV producers last year were an embarrassment to their nation. Have 2 angles with one showing a clear grounding the other angle an optical illusion showing held up. Repeatedly show the one illusory angle, even after the decision has been made.
Sky's rugby production and editorial standards stand out above the partisan and/or trolling nonsense of the Herald. They have a bouquet from me.
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Another thing under Ritchies reign was that the team would always stay composed in that pressure situation (The learnings from 2007 apparently)
It looks as though if we aren't smashing a team we are in panick mode a bit.
@Hooroo said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Another thing under Ritchies reign was that the team would always stay composed in that pressure situation (The learnings from 2007 apparently)
It looks as though if we aren't smashing a team we are in panick mode a bit.
Crusaders look a lot more composed this year with Whitelock as captain instead of Read.
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@taniwharugby the worst one i saw was Genia threw it a mile forward to hit one of our guys, and the ref payed it! fuck i blew up!
The worst offence by a halfback all game was definitely TJP waving his arms at the ref instead of picking the ball up. Fuck that guy.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
The worst offence by a halfback all game was definitely TJP waving his arms at the ref instead of picking the ball up. Fuck that guy.
Particularly for a team that likes to play faster than the opposition can handle.
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I guess TBF to Read, McCaw copped a lot of criticism about his leadership early on too, particularly some time in 2007 and questions were raised about whether he should continue as captain.
@SammyC I'm a huge fan of Whitelock anyway and wouldn't have minded if they went with him, but it seemed a long time ago Read was seen as the heir apparent, hopefully he will take some massive learnings form this.
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@Hooroo said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Another thing under Ritchies reign was that the team would always stay composed in that pressure situation (The learnings from 2007 apparently)
It looks as though if we aren't smashing a team we are in panick mode a bit.
Crusaders look a lot more composed this year with Whitelock as captain instead of Read.
