All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3
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I argue that Owens did not 'play the ball', which is covered in 11.7 as well. It was a purely instinctive move (like shielding youself from a kick) and as soon as he realised he put his hands in the air.
Poite's mistake was not playing advantage. I don't agree that it 'cost the ABs a try', but it did cost them a solid attacking opportunity. If he had played advantage, he could have negated the calls for a penalty because it would be clear the Lions gained no advantage from Owens play.
I can totally understand the arguments you make, and I can see how you can come to the conclusion that Owens 'played the ball'. I don't think what he did constitutes that, and I think Poite was fair enough to give him the benefit of the doubt.
@barbarian said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
I argue that Owens did not 'play the ball', which is covered in 11.7 as well. It was a purely instinctive move (like shielding youself from a kick) and as soon as he realised he put his hands in the air.
Poite's mistake was not playing advantage. I don't agree that it 'cost the ABs a try', but it did cost them a solid attacking opportunity. If he had played advantage, he could have negated the calls for a penalty because it would be clear the Lions gained no advantage from Owens play.
I can totally understand the arguments you make, and I can see how you can come to the conclusion that Owens 'played the ball'. I don't think what he did constitutes that, and I think Poite was fair enough to give him the benefit of the doubt.
So you admit Poite made a mistake in blowing his whistle and not allowing the advantage, but still reckon he made the right decision? What kind of bizarre logic is that?
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@Rapido For me the most annoying thing was Webb throwing the ball into Crockett to milk the penalty. Most SH refs wouldn't have penalised Crockett for that. Another annoying thing was the failure of the officials to review Sexton's head high on Barrett. Much worse than Kaino's tackle.
But nothing annoys me more than our own inability to finish all the chances we created.
@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rapido For me the most annoying thing was Webb throwing the ball into Crockett to milk the penalty. Most SH refs wouldn't have penalised Crockett for that. Another annoying thing was the failure of the officials to review Sexton's head high on Barrett. Much worse than Kaino's tackle.
But nothing annoys me more than our own inability to finish all the chances we created.
@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rapido For me the most annoying thing was Webb throwing the ball into Crockett to milk the penalty. Most SH refs wouldn't have penalised Crockett for that. Another annoying thing was the failure of the officials to review Sexton's head high on Barrett. Much worse than Kaino's tackle.
But nothing annoys me more than our own inability to finish all the chances we created.
No, not for me. IMO. Those are just things you have to accept and they go both ways. I have no major issues with refs in real time making mistakes, or even technically correct (but a bit annoying) decisions like that the Crockett one.
You win some you lose some, first penalty v Warburton was harsh etc etc
On the Sexton high tackle. I assume the TMO checked it out, he signalled advantage, so was probably just shoulder and no further sanction (the play led to Lamape try). Ironically that period of play also included A Smith attempting to milk a penalty by passing it into a lion at the back of the ruck. But this was totally ignored by Poite, then he picked it back up, reset, and Beauden kickpassed for the try.
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@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rapido For me the most annoying thing was Webb throwing the ball into Crockett to milk the penalty. Most SH refs wouldn't have penalised Crockett for that. Another annoying thing was the failure of the officials to review Sexton's head high on Barrett. Much worse than Kaino's tackle.
But nothing annoys me more than our own inability to finish all the chances we created.
@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rapido For me the most annoying thing was Webb throwing the ball into Crockett to milk the penalty. Most SH refs wouldn't have penalised Crockett for that. Another annoying thing was the failure of the officials to review Sexton's head high on Barrett. Much worse than Kaino's tackle.
But nothing annoys me more than our own inability to finish all the chances we created.
No, not for me. IMO. Those are just things you have to accept and they go both ways. I have no major issues with refs in real time making mistakes, or even technically correct (but a bit annoying) decisions like that the Crockett one.
You win some you lose some, first penalty v Warburton was harsh etc etc
On the Sexton high tackle. I assume the TMO checked it out, he signalled advantage, so was probably just shoulder and no further sanction (the play led to Lamape try). Ironically that period of play also included A Smith attempting to milk a penalty by passing it into a lion at the back of the ruck. But this was totally ignored by Poite, then he picked it back up, reset, and Beauden kickpassed for the try.
@Rapido Well if the TMO thought it was a hit to the shoulder, then he has to be blind. It was clearly a head high. I thought our local broadcasters did not do us any favours either. They didn't replay the Sexton tackle but chose to immediately replay Kaino's head high hit.
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The first half of barbarian's aritcle is well written, but by the end it reads a bit like the old "It's Mabo, it's the constitution, it's the vibe..." bit from the Castle.
11.7 is the law and despite what Lions supporters (and AB haters) will have you believe the law is actually relatively clear and has been ruled consistently since day dot including a reasonably famous RWC QF.
Yes, winning tests on technical penalties isn't ideal - but when you are on the receiving end like Wellington 2000, the 2015 RWC QF or the Lions in Wellington last week it's all well and good.
Try again.
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I hate halfbacks passing into a player to milk a penalty, IMO is is against the spirit of the game given most of the time they don't need to, I don't recall Smiths one alluded to above (but know he does it too) but I was fuming at Murray's one, was pathetic (as are many like that)
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I hate halfbacks passing into a player to milk a penalty, IMO is is against the spirit of the game given most of the time they don't need to, I don't recall Smiths one alluded to above (but know he does it too) but I was fuming at Murray's one, was pathetic (as are many like that)
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@taniwharugby Yeah, agreed but I think it was actually Webb.
@akan004 halfbacks, all look (sound) the bloody same
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I hate halfbacks passing into a player to milk a penalty, IMO is is against the spirit of the game given most of the time they don't need to, I don't recall Smiths one alluded to above (but know he does it too) but I was fuming at Murray's one, was pathetic (as are many like that)
@taniwharugby the worst one i saw was Genia threw it a mile forward to hit one of our guys, and the ref payed it! fuck i blew up!
The worst offence by a halfback all game was definitely TJP waving his arms at the ref instead of picking the ball up. Fuck that guy.
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@Rapido Well if the TMO thought it was a hit to the shoulder, then he has to be blind. It was clearly a head high. I thought our local broadcasters did not do us any favours either. They didn't replay the Sexton tackle but chose to immediately replay Kaino's head high hit.
@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rapido Well if the TMO thought it was a hit to the shoulder, then he has to be blind. It was clearly a head high. I thought our local broadcasters did not do us any favours either. They didn't replay the Sexton tackle but chose to immediately replay Kaino's head high hit.
How could you tell that from the tv angle though? They didn't replay it.
So if it is like the Whitelock over the shoulder high tackle penalty, then no further sanction. I may be giving Ayoub too much credit but I'm going to assume they checked it out.
I think the local broadcaster deserves praise through this series. Eg can't imagine a Taylor / Vunipola late tackle comparison montage like in the second test from some overseas broadcasts.
Better TV producers breed better fans.
Eg The Irish TV producers last year were an embarrassment to their nation. Have 2 angles with one showing a clear grounding the other angle an optical illusion showing held up. Repeatedly show the one illusory angle, even after the decision has been made.
Sky's rugby production and editorial standards stand out above the partisan and/or trolling nonsense of the Herald. They have a bouquet from me.
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Another thing under Ritchies reign was that the team would always stay composed in that pressure situation (The learnings from 2007 apparently)
It looks as though if we aren't smashing a team we are in panick mode a bit.
@Hooroo said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Another thing under Ritchies reign was that the team would always stay composed in that pressure situation (The learnings from 2007 apparently)
It looks as though if we aren't smashing a team we are in panick mode a bit.
Crusaders look a lot more composed this year with Whitelock as captain instead of Read.
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@taniwharugby the worst one i saw was Genia threw it a mile forward to hit one of our guys, and the ref payed it! fuck i blew up!
The worst offence by a halfback all game was definitely TJP waving his arms at the ref instead of picking the ball up. Fuck that guy.
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
The worst offence by a halfback all game was definitely TJP waving his arms at the ref instead of picking the ball up. Fuck that guy.
Particularly for a team that likes to play faster than the opposition can handle.
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I guess TBF to Read, McCaw copped a lot of criticism about his leadership early on too, particularly some time in 2007 and questions were raised about whether he should continue as captain.
@SammyC I'm a huge fan of Whitelock anyway and wouldn't have minded if they went with him, but it seemed a long time ago Read was seen as the heir apparent, hopefully he will take some massive learnings form this.
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@Hooroo said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Another thing under Ritchies reign was that the team would always stay composed in that pressure situation (The learnings from 2007 apparently)
It looks as though if we aren't smashing a team we are in panick mode a bit.
Crusaders look a lot more composed this year with Whitelock as captain instead of Read.
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@Hooroo said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Another thing under Ritchies reign was that the team would always stay composed in that pressure situation (The learnings from 2007 apparently)
It looks as though if we aren't smashing a team we are in panick mode a bit.
Crusaders look a lot more composed this year with Whitelock as captain instead of Read.
@SammyC said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Hooroo said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Another thing under Ritchies reign was that the team would always stay composed in that pressure situation (The learnings from 2007 apparently)
It looks as though if we aren't smashing a team we are in panick mode a bit.
Crusaders look a lot more composed this year with Whitelock as captain instead of Read.
You can't really isolate the on field captaincy and ignore the change at the top. The Crusaders simply look a better side this year, it's whataboutery to suggest things would be any different with Read as captain (and vice versa).
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@akan004 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Rapido Well if the TMO thought it was a hit to the shoulder, then he has to be blind. It was clearly a head high. I thought our local broadcasters did not do us any favours either. They didn't replay the Sexton tackle but chose to immediately replay Kaino's head high hit.
How could you tell that from the tv angle though? They didn't replay it.
So if it is like the Whitelock over the shoulder high tackle penalty, then no further sanction. I may be giving Ayoub too much credit but I'm going to assume they checked it out.
I think the local broadcaster deserves praise through this series. Eg can't imagine a Taylor / Vunipola late tackle comparison montage like in the second test from some overseas broadcasts.
Better TV producers breed better fans.
Eg The Irish TV producers last year were an embarrassment to their nation. Have 2 angles with one showing a clear grounding the other angle an optical illusion showing held up. Repeatedly show the one illusory angle, even after the decision has been made.
Sky's rugby production and editorial standards stand out above the partisan and/or trolling nonsense of the Herald. They have a bouquet from me.
@Rapido Pause the video at exactly 20.21. It's as clear as day and you would expect the TMO to pick this up as I assume he has not just this angle, but also others to work with.
I guess I am of the view that when you are playing at home, you seek to get any home ground advantage you can find and therefore was dissapointed with Sky for not replaying the Sexton tackle. But I do also see where you are coming from in many ways. It's just a hard pill to swallow in this series where it seems most of the big calls have gone their way, so a little home town help would have balanced things out ever so slightly.
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@SammyC said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Hooroo said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Another thing under Ritchies reign was that the team would always stay composed in that pressure situation (The learnings from 2007 apparently)
It looks as though if we aren't smashing a team we are in panick mode a bit.
Crusaders look a lot more composed this year with Whitelock as captain instead of Read.
You can't really isolate the on field captaincy and ignore the change at the top. The Crusaders simply look a better side this year, it's whataboutery to suggest things would be any different with Read as captain (and vice versa).
@Nepia said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@SammyC said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@Hooroo said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Another thing under Ritchies reign was that the team would always stay composed in that pressure situation (The learnings from 2007 apparently)
It looks as though if we aren't smashing a team we are in panick mode a bit.
Crusaders look a lot more composed this year with Whitelock as captain instead of Read.
You can't really isolate the on field captaincy and ignore the change at the top. The Crusaders simply look a better side this year, it's whataboutery to suggest things would be any different with Read as captain (and vice versa).
Agree it's only one factor.
But at least he doesn't spend half the game waving his hands in the air appealing to the ref like Read did in the past.
I reckon that shows better composure.
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Read seemed passable to me, just the same as Richie and Fitzy in the early days. Both had their Waterloo and became better captains out of it - the only worry for me is he doesn't have as many years left in his career as those two did.
Ben Smith and an established midfield was missed in terms of obvious on field leadership. But what can you do?
The only player who I thought had the personality and opportunity to really boss things a bit more as Aaron Smith. But he was fine, just maybe missed an opportunity for "the Aaron Smith" game - getting hooked at the end didn't help.
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I'm guessing behind closed doors the abs brains trust will accept this as a failure , (despite some of the positive spin shag put on it )
With the wc two years away , I don't mind that part , hopefully we will look back at it as a turning point .
