All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3
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I find this one strange as well. I think we as fans ( including Mex) are fully within our rights to blast the ref and say he cost us the series. I think the players and coaches should look at themselves and figure out how to take the ref out the game and that's exactly what they are doing. Not like the ABs were terrible, Poite and SBW hurt them bad. I thought by 3rd test they figured out how to beat rush defense but execution was poor but easily fixable. The result is what is but I think things like blaming Hansen for substituting Half back which the ABs have done for at least 13years is just silly.
@DMX said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
I find this one strange as well. I think we as fans ( including Mex) are fully within our rights to blast the ref and say he cost us the series. I think the players and coaches should look at themselves and figure out how to take the ref out the game and that's exactly what they are doing. Not like the ABs were terrible, Poite and SBW hurt them bad. I thought by 3rd test they figured out how to beat rush defense but execution was poor but easily fixable. The result is what is but I think things like blaming Hansen for substituting Half back which the ABs have done for at least 13years is just silly.
On the halfback substitution, sometimes it is better to leave the guy out there who is playing well especially when the pressure is on. The Ireland test a few years ago when Hansen left Aaron Smith on for all 83 minutes, his accuracy and speed was a huge reason why we created space and were able to make metres like we did.
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the other one that concerned me was test 1... kaino subbed off, no mention of HIA.... sam cane goes down injured shortly after... then it turns out kaino is off for a HIA? seemed a bit dubious to me at the time, though could have been perfectly innocent.
don't want to see it used as a tactical tool.@reprobate said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
the other one that concerned me was test 1... kaino subbed off, no mention of HIA.... sam cane goes down injured shortly after... then it turns out kaino is off for a HIA? seemed a bit dubious to me at the time, though could have been perfectly innocent.
don't want to see it used as a tactical tool.Yeah - during that 3rd game, I seem to recall getting a little suspicious about some of the players going off for HIA (/rest).
I'm sure I was just being paranoid (and just nervous as all fuck, imagining all sorts of cloak-and-dagger shit)... but it would be an ideal foil against the ABs strength of keeping a game up-tempo... you get to slow the overall game down, plus a player gets a bit of a rest. -
Jonathan Davies deservedly named Man of the Series for the Lions.
And after the dust has settled and thoughts turn to pre-season training and Autumn Internationals, were the omitted and injured missed?
It was unfortunate that Hogg was injured out of the series, but to be fair he wasn't playing well prior to his departure. Would Brown have offered anything better than Williams? I don't think so.
Would the Gray brothers and Launchbury have made the Test side? Maybe Launchbury.
When the Lions went away from 'Warrenball' to 'Eddieball' I think we would have been better served having the original - Ford - not the imitation - Sexton.
And what we really missed was an out and out speedster like Christian Wade or Johnnie May who could have finished some of the chances we created.
But overall the squad selection seems to have been close to spot on.
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Jonathan Davies deservedly named Man of the Series for the Lions.
And after the dust has settled and thoughts turn to pre-season training and Autumn Internationals, were the omitted and injured missed?
It was unfortunate that Hogg was injured out of the series, but to be fair he wasn't playing well prior to his departure. Would Brown have offered anything better than Williams? I don't think so.
Would the Gray brothers and Launchbury have made the Test side? Maybe Launchbury.
When the Lions went away from 'Warrenball' to 'Eddieball' I think we would have been better served having the original - Ford - not the imitation - Sexton.
And what we really missed was an out and out speedster like Christian Wade or Johnnie May who could have finished some of the chances we created.
But overall the squad selection seems to have been close to spot on.
I've never been a fan, but Davies was truly excellent all tour and well deserving of the reward - what a turnaround from the Six Nations. Warburton and AWJ both also more than justified their selection. Ahead of the tour I thought Gatland's selection of his favourites regardless of form would come back to bite him, but he made a great job of differentiating those who could raise their game from those who weren't ready for the challenge (Halfpenny, North).
Launchbury was hugely unlucky, but all of the Lions locks on tour played extremely well and with hindsight it's difficult to say any of them shouldn't have been there.
The most interesting non-tourist would have been Billy Vunipola. Faletau was one of the best players on tour - could Billy have pushed him to the bench? Or, like CJ Stander, would he have found he was getting less change than usual from his carries and not have a plan B? I think he's a better carrier than Stander with better footwork in traffic, and his game would translate better against Kiwi defences, but I guess we'll have to wait until 2018 to see.
I think Youngs would have been a huge upgrade on Laidlaw for the midweek side, but probably wouldn't have troubled the selectors for the Tests.
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@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Jonathan Davies deservedly named Man of the Series for the Lions.
And after the dust has settled and thoughts turn to pre-season training and Autumn Internationals, were the omitted and injured missed?
It was unfortunate that Hogg was injured out of the series, but to be fair he wasn't playing well prior to his departure. Would Brown have offered anything better than Williams? I don't think so.
Would the Gray brothers and Launchbury have made the Test side? Maybe Launchbury.
When the Lions went away from 'Warrenball' to 'Eddieball' I think we would have been better served having the original - Ford - not the imitation - Sexton.
And what we really missed was an out and out speedster like Christian Wade or Johnnie May who could have finished some of the chances we created.
But overall the squad selection seems to have been close to spot on.
I've never been a fan, but Davies was truly excellent all tour and well deserving of the reward - what a turnaround from the Six Nations. Warburton and AWJ both also more than justified their selection. Ahead of the tour I thought Gatland's selection of his favourites regardless of form would come back to bite him, but he made a great job of differentiating those who could raise their game from those who weren't ready for the challenge (Halfpenny, North).
Launchbury was hugely unlucky, but all of the Lions locks on tour played extremely well and with hindsight it's difficult to say any of them shouldn't have been there.
The most interesting non-tourist would have been Billy Vunipola. Faletau was one of the best players on tour - could Billy have pushed him to the bench? Or, like CJ Stander, would he have found he was getting less change than usual from his carries and not have a plan B? I think he's a better carrier than Stander with better footwork in traffic, and his game would translate better against Kiwi defences, but I guess we'll have to wait until 2018 to see.
I think Youngs would have been a huge upgrade on Laidlaw for the midweek side, but probably wouldn't have troubled the selectors for the Tests.
@SimonAdd_2 said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@MiketheSnow said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Jonathan Davies deservedly named Man of the Series for the Lions.
And after the dust has settled and thoughts turn to pre-season training and Autumn Internationals, were the omitted and injured missed?
It was unfortunate that Hogg was injured out of the series, but to be fair he wasn't playing well prior to his departure. Would Brown have offered anything better than Williams? I don't think so.
Would the Gray brothers and Launchbury have made the Test side? Maybe Launchbury.
When the Lions went away from 'Warrenball' to 'Eddieball' I think we would have been better served having the original - Ford - not the imitation - Sexton.
And what we really missed was an out and out speedster like Christian Wade or Johnnie May who could have finished some of the chances we created.
But overall the squad selection seems to have been close to spot on.
I've never been a fan, but Davies was truly excellent all tour and well deserving of the reward - what a turnaround from the Six Nations. Warburton and AWJ both also more than justified their selection. Ahead of the tour I thought Gatland's selection of his favourites regardless of form would come back to bite him, but he made a great job of differentiating those who could raise their game from those who weren't ready for the challenge (Halfpenny, North).
Launchbury was hugely unlucky, but all of the Lions locks on tour played extremely well and with hindsight it's difficult to say any of them shouldn't have been there.
The most interesting non-tourist would have been Billy Vunipola. Faletau was one of the best players on tour - could Billy have pushed him to the bench? Or, like CJ Stander, would he have found he was getting less change than usual from his carries and not have a plan B? I think he's a better carrier than Stander with better footwork in traffic, and his game would translate better against Kiwi defences, but I guess we'll have to wait until 2018 to see.
I think Youngs would have been a huge upgrade on Laidlaw for the midweek side, but probably wouldn't have troubled the selectors for the Tests.
Forgot about Billy. His participation would have been very interesting.
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This game really appears to have been one massive cockup by match officials:
http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/16057/10943668/officials-wrong-to-allow-lions-star-alun-wyn-jones-back-on-after-hia@antipodean said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
This game really appears to have been one massive cockup by match officials:
http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/16057/10943668/officials-wrong-to-allow-lions-star-alun-wyn-jones-back-on-after-hiaBut wasn't he subbed after he passed the HIA by Lawes. So coming back on to replace Warburton when he went off for his HIA is all a non-issue.
3.14 Substituted players rejoining the match
If a player is substituted, that player may only return to play when replacing:
•an injured front row player in accordance with Law 3.5
•a player with a blood injury in accordance with Law 3.11
•a player undertaking a Head Injury Assessment in accordance with Law 3.12
•a player who has been injured as a result of foul play (as verified by the Match Officials). -
Lions HIAs were independently assessed by a independent medical doctor to take the Lions coaching/medical team out of the equation. Eanna Falvey covered this in an interview 2-3 weeks ago. http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/94442032/lions-doctor-eanna-falvey-gives-insight-into-modern-concussion-protocols
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Lions HIAs were independently assessed by a independent medical doctor to take the Lions coaching/medical team out of the equation. Eanna Falvey covered this in an interview 2-3 weeks ago. http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/94442032/lions-doctor-eanna-falvey-gives-insight-into-modern-concussion-protocols
@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Lions HIAs were independently assessed by a independent medical doctor to take the Lions coaching/medical team out of the equation. Eanna Falvey covered this in an interview 2-3 weeks ago. http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/94442032/lions-doctor-eanna-falvey-gives-insight-into-modern-concussion-protocols
That sure is nice but it's a matter of (rugby) law not a matter of medicine.
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@Pot-Hale said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
Lions HIAs were independently assessed by a independent medical doctor to take the Lions coaching/medical team out of the equation. Eanna Falvey covered this in an interview 2-3 weeks ago. http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/94442032/lions-doctor-eanna-falvey-gives-insight-into-modern-concussion-protocols
That sure is nice but it's a matter of (rugby) law not a matter of medicine.
@Frye you're quite right it is.
See post above my irrelevant one. Carry on as before - nothing to see here.
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Jonathan Davies deservedly named Man of the Series for the Lions.
And after the dust has settled and thoughts turn to pre-season training and Autumn Internationals, were the omitted and injured missed?
It was unfortunate that Hogg was injured out of the series, but to be fair he wasn't playing well prior to his departure. Would Brown have offered anything better than Williams? I don't think so.
Would the Gray brothers and Launchbury have made the Test side? Maybe Launchbury.
When the Lions went away from 'Warrenball' to 'Eddieball' I think we would have been better served having the original - Ford - not the imitation - Sexton.
And what we really missed was an out and out speedster like Christian Wade or Johnnie May who could have finished some of the chances we created.
But overall the squad selection seems to have been close to spot on.
@MiketheSnow Davies was immense on attack and defence and played every minute of the series. So glad he was names man of series ahead of the wankstain that is Itoje.
Don't get the love for him in the NH press and amongst Lions fans. He reminds me of Frank Bruno. Superb physical athlete just a shame he doesn't know how to play the game. I'm undoubtedly over-reacting but he strikes me as a bit meh and would add nothing to the AB's. Gladly have Davies in midfield though.
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There is some onus on players too, there was a super rugby a few weeks back, think it was Sam Cane and one of the Chiefs props asked ot be taken for HIA.
IIRC Cane passed the protocols but he said he didnt feel right so stayed off.
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I reckon Poite got it right. Now I expect that to go down on here like a glass of warm urine, but nonetheless I feel like I can back it up.
I also think it's fair that AB fans feel a bit aggrieved. I would if it happened to the Wallabies. For me it was a genuine 50/50 call, with a lot of grey areas. I've written more about it here if you are really desperate for more (the comments are quite interesting).
At the very least, his decision to call a scrum is justifiable under law 11. It's miles from a Wayne Barnes forward pass scenario, or even a Bryce Lawrence at the 2011 RWC QF scenario.
It's a fascinating discussion once you remove the emotion. Really comes back to the idea of intent and what it is to 'play the ball'.
@barbarian Nothing wrong with your analysis honestly, but you have made one massive glaring omission.
Poite blew the whistle stopping play, when the AB's were in a strong attacking position - I'm not convinced like others that ALB was through, as the tackle on him was half hearted, but you cannot deny that we had awesome attacking go-forward ball, against a broken defensive line, with defense back tracking & offence charging forwards.
He blew that whistle, as I'm sure he thought at that point that Black would want the penalty. So he stifled the great attacking chance for the penalty. And then he took that penalty away because he didn't have the nuts (anybody can say what they want, but he changed his mind because he didn't have the balls to make the decision that was in front of him).
It was a shambles, a shafting, and honestly nothing but a complete fuckin debacle. It's a shame, as up until that point, he'd had a great game.
They say the greats come to the fore when it matters, when the pressure is on. Poite proved beyond any doubt that he doesn't have what it takes.
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@barbarian Nothing wrong with your analysis honestly, but you have made one massive glaring omission.
Poite blew the whistle stopping play, when the AB's were in a strong attacking position - I'm not convinced like others that ALB was through, as the tackle on him was half hearted, but you cannot deny that we had awesome attacking go-forward ball, against a broken defensive line, with defense back tracking & offence charging forwards.
He blew that whistle, as I'm sure he thought at that point that Black would want the penalty. So he stifled the great attacking chance for the penalty. And then he took that penalty away because he didn't have the nuts (anybody can say what they want, but he changed his mind because he didn't have the balls to make the decision that was in front of him).
It was a shambles, a shafting, and honestly nothing but a complete fuckin debacle. It's a shame, as up until that point, he'd had a great game.
They say the greats come to the fore when it matters, when the pressure is on. Poite proved beyond any doubt that he doesn't have what it takes.
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@MajorRage I don't know if I have a poor memory, but you don't often gripe about refs or ABs getting the shaft, so that's rather telling for me.
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@MiketheSnow Davies was immense on attack and defence and played every minute of the series. So glad he was names man of series ahead of the wankstain that is Itoje.
Don't get the love for him in the NH press and amongst Lions fans. He reminds me of Frank Bruno. Superb physical athlete just a shame he doesn't know how to play the game. I'm undoubtedly over-reacting but he strikes me as a bit meh and would add nothing to the AB's. Gladly have Davies in midfield though.
@dogmeat said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@MiketheSnow Davies was immense on attack and defence and played every minute of the series. So glad he was names man of series ahead of the wankstain that is Itoje.
Don't get the love for him in the NH press and amongst Lions fans. He reminds me of Frank Bruno. Superb physical athlete just a shame he doesn't know how to play the game. I'm undoubtedly over-reacting but he strikes me as a bit meh and would add nothing to the AB's. Gladly have Davies in midfield though.
He's getting incredible hype in the NH. Just the other day there was silly talk about him being the first million pound player in the world. Why would someone say that other than to purposely hype him up?! Knowing the media its probably another case of reverse racism. Not Itoje's fault.
I thought Henderson should have gotten a game at least as a sub.
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@MiketheSnow Davies was immense on attack and defence and played every minute of the series. So glad he was names man of series ahead of the wankstain that is Itoje.
Don't get the love for him in the NH press and amongst Lions fans. He reminds me of Frank Bruno. Superb physical athlete just a shame he doesn't know how to play the game. I'm undoubtedly over-reacting but he strikes me as a bit meh and would add nothing to the AB's. Gladly have Davies in midfield though.
He's getting incredible hype in the NH. Just the other day there was silly talk about him being the first million pound player in the world. Why would someone say that other than to purposely hype him up?! Knowing the media its probably another case of reverse racism. Not Itoje's fault.
I thought Henderson should have gotten a game at least as a sub.
@profitius I thought Itoje was pretty good in the last test, but he was poor in the second yet was getting plaudits from NH fans and media. I agree that Henderson should have got a run at some stage.
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@dogmeat said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@MiketheSnow Davies was immense on attack and defence and played every minute of the series. So glad he was names man of series ahead of the wankstain that is Itoje.
Don't get the love for him in the NH press and amongst Lions fans. He reminds me of Frank Bruno. Superb physical athlete just a shame he doesn't know how to play the game. I'm undoubtedly over-reacting but he strikes me as a bit meh and would add nothing to the AB's. Gladly have Davies in midfield though.
He's getting incredible hype in the NH. Just the other day there was silly talk about him being the first million pound player in the world. Why would someone say that other than to purposely hype him up?! Knowing the media its probably another case of reverse racism. Not Itoje's fault.
I thought Henderson should have gotten a game at least as a sub.
@profitius said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@dogmeat said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
@MiketheSnow Davies was immense on attack and defence and played every minute of the series. So glad he was names man of series ahead of the wankstain that is Itoje.
Don't get the love for him in the NH press and amongst Lions fans. He reminds me of Frank Bruno. Superb physical athlete just a shame he doesn't know how to play the game. I'm undoubtedly over-reacting but he strikes me as a bit meh and would add nothing to the AB's. Gladly have Davies in midfield though.
He's getting incredible hype in the NH. Just the other day there was silly talk about him being the first million pound player in the world. Why would someone say that other than to purposely hype him up?! Knowing the media its probably another case of reverse racism. Not Itoje's fault.
I thought Henderson should have gotten a game at least as a sub.
Someone will surely pay big bucks for his cloaking device. How else could he be that far offside so many times and not be pinged?
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@barbarian Nothing wrong with your analysis honestly, but you have made one massive glaring omission.
Poite blew the whistle stopping play, when the AB's were in a strong attacking position - I'm not convinced like others that ALB was through, as the tackle on him was half hearted, but you cannot deny that we had awesome attacking go-forward ball, against a broken defensive line, with defense back tracking & offence charging forwards.
He blew that whistle, as I'm sure he thought at that point that Black would want the penalty. So he stifled the great attacking chance for the penalty. And then he took that penalty away because he didn't have the nuts (anybody can say what they want, but he changed his mind because he didn't have the balls to make the decision that was in front of him).
It was a shambles, a shafting, and honestly nothing but a complete fuckin debacle. It's a shame, as up until that point, he'd had a great game.
They say the greats come to the fore when it matters, when the pressure is on. Poite proved beyond any doubt that he doesn't have what it takes.
@MajorRage said in All Blacks v BI Lions Test #3:
he didn't have the nuts (anybody can say what they want, but he changed his mind because he didn't have the balls to make the decision that was in front of him).
beyond any doubt that he doesn't have what it takes.I agree with everything else you said 100% but I think it took massive balls to change his call.
He had already made the call, his TMO had reconfirmed and he had video evidence of Owens giving a sworn affidavit that he was offside and knew it. Plus it was against the home crowd.
To go against that takes massive stones.
Now the failure of the IRB, Potite and Garces to come out an explain/apologize/take accountability speaks to their lack of integrity rather than balls.
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Do they record the chat between Ref and the ARs, given the alleged call to change was made in FRench from Garces to Poite, surely that in itself needs dealing with, because it is essentially removing the other AR and the TMO from the process.
