Waikato and the Chiefs
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I thought the past few seasons of Super rugby have been very competitive (NZ Teams) and if you take out the anomaly of last year with the rule tweaking, I think the overall quality of rugby in the NPC has been on the improve over the last few years.
Surely that is a sign that at the moment, things are about right, that's not to say things wont need tweaking down the track.
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The topic was clearly stated by Shark, the significant decline of Waikato while the Chiefs prospered.
What hasn't been discussedmuch is the effect of the change in how super teams are contracted. It seems now that most places are filled before the crunch end of the ITM Cup, making it far less relevant towards Super selections. Tyler Ardron has played well for Canada when free from injury. But, what does an early signing of an overseas player say to local contenders playing in ITM Cup, like Manihera, Parete, Henwood and Halafihi? We know what happened with Halafihi now, and poor old Joe Tupe last year. I can understand Luke Jacobsen, and perhaps Tiaan Falcon as an outsider - but does that impact on Luteru Laulala, Matty Lansdown, Mike Delaney, Steve Donald etc? Signing Tahuriorangi is reclaiming local talent, but not a great motivator for Judd, Levien etc.
I just read Beaver's book, and it reinforced to me how important it is for players to have genuine aspirations, to bring out the best in their play. In answer to previous posters I was stunned last year that Douglas, Tupe, Vaka, Mitch Jacobson, Skeen and Reece all missed both the draft and WTG spots for all franchises. Glad the last 3 have hung around, but the performances of their team in ITM Cup this year will not have helped their case at all.
I see a real correlation between ITM Cup performance and the number of players who have their Super Rugby spots sorted. I see that in 27 Cantabrians and 23 from Taranaki. But, 18 of those Taranaki players played for franchises other than the Chiefs this year. Maybe Waikato needs to assist more players towards pathways outside the Chiefs???
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In terms of the early contracting, and keeping spots open and having an end of season signing-up deadline, or even the mini-draft they used to do for out-of-franchise players.
There's (exodus) risk in that approach too. Players might put up with it for a year or 2 at the start of their careers when they are young, hungry and ambitious.
But who wants to get to November and not yet know if next year you're earning a 50k NPC wage or earning a 150k combined NPC +SR wage. Etc, Also not know what town or even island you will be living in next year, and the year after that.
That approach works in a bubble, not when you have well paid stable options overseas.
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@arhs said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
The topic was clearly stated by Shark, the significant decline of Waikato while the Chiefs prospered.
What hasn't been discussedmuch is the effect of the change in how super teams are contracted. It seems now that most places are filled before the crunch end of the ITM Cup, making it far less relevant towards Super selections. Tyler Ardron has played well for Canada when free from injury. But, what does an early signing of an overseas player say to local contenders playing in ITM Cup, like Manihera, Parete, Henwood and Halafihi? We know what happened with Halafihi now, and poor old Joe Tupe last year. I can understand Luke Jacobsen, and perhaps Tiaan Falcon as an outsider - but does that impact on Luteru Laulala, Matty Lansdown, Mike Delaney, Steve Donald etc? Signing Tahuriorangi is reclaiming local talent, but not a great motivator for Judd, Levien etc.
I just read Beaver's book, and it reinforced to me how important it is for players to have genuine aspirations, to bring out the best in their play. In answer to previous posters I was stunned last year that Douglas, Tupe, Vaka, Mitch Jacobson, Skeen and Reece all missed both the draft and WTG spots for all franchises. Glad the last 3 have hung around, but the performances of their team in ITM Cup this year will not have helped their case at all.
I see a real correlation between ITM Cup performance and the number of players who have their Super Rugby spots sorted. I see that in 27 Cantabrians and 23 from Taranaki. But, 18 of those Taranaki players played for franchises other than the Chiefs this year. Maybe Waikato needs to assist more players towards pathways outside the Chiefs???
Thank you. Someone that actually got the topic and put forward a really sound suite of points.
The point you make re early contracting being to the detriment of form in the NPC is a really good one. I was really worried from a Crusaders POV that there wouldn't be room in our squad for Brayden Ennor, but they then signed him up (possibly aware at that stage that Ioane wouldn't be back). I worry there won't be room for McKay and Jordan though and they may sign elsewhere. A quota might help this situation, but also may not as the spots available for local players may not match the positions of the form players.
Good debate though.
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Odd in a troll thread that the OP is complaining about being trolled ....
@shark said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
I'm IMPLYING the Waikato demise is associated with the Chiefs selection policies since Central contracting began, and I've thrown out a scenario re how the two could be connected, but I've actually asked for opinions from locals.
I'm focusing on Douglas because he's a perfect and very recent example of the kind of player ignored by the Chiefs in lieu of other signings, who was proven to be well and truly up to scratch, but is now gone.
I get that some fans of other franchises may have
disassociated said franchise from the local provinces, more ala US pro sports where it's a rarity to have a local player in a squad, but we're not the US. NZ is a vastly smaller market and there's no reason why the Super structure can't be tinkered with, without breaking it, so that all sides end up with more local talent involved.Clearly no matter what replies you got, from anyone, you were going to ignore anyway. Waikato are shit at the moment because they're shit at the moment. If the Chiefs had picked a preponderance of Waikato players in the last four years then the Blues would be happy as they wouldn't be the 5th NZ team anymore.
You're repeatedly ignoring comments from a poster within that region, who note that they don't want to see a scenario where Waikato dominates the franchise in a way that diminishes the other teams in the franchise.
Douglas was ignored by the Chiefs (and all other franchises) because he wasn't considered better than all other options. The Chiefs loose forwards were mostly from within the franchise borders, in fact no team, not even your Crusaders select all loosies from within their borders. Every year players who deserve a spot miss out, and they often miss out to players selected in a team not from the region.
Your idea of having a certain number of players from within the franchise boundaries is fine, and it currently does happen, but even then you're not happy because in the franchise in question the 'base' doesn't dominate.
As @booboo notes only one franchise base has made the finals this year and two of the franchises bases are already in 2nd division - so why the focus on Waikato?
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This article that @Stargazer posted in another thread shines a bit more light on Waikato's issue:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/provincial/98039706Seems more like historical financial issues have a part to play than Chiefs contracting.
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While I was furious at Joe Tupe missing out on Chiefs selection for 2017...
... it was a drop in the ocean compared to the perceived 'injustices' that used to happen to Bay players under the old model.
Perhaps it opens up opportunities to retain players too. These days we have Culum "100+ games for the Bay" Retallick playing for the Rebels in the off season.
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As I've been away I've just read through this thread. When I started supporting Waikato in the 1980s they were a 2nd Div side so I've been through the many lows and occasional highs.
As the article states there has been some financial challenges in recent years (resulting in a self-imposed salary cap) but that doesn't excuse 6 years of under-performance. "Relegation" is no more than Waikato deserved so hopefully something positive comes out of this review. I think that the current coaches (Botherway, Randle and Hoeft) should go, as they need to be held accountable, but I have no idea of potential replacement coaches. That doesn't exempt the players either but the fact there are so few Super players in the Waikato starting XV is indicative of their performances this season.
Certainly the role of the NPC has changed since the advent of Super rugby, particularly after the changes in the contracting system. In the 1990s I had little interest in the Chiefs as we were lumped with NH and my support was solely with Waikato. Even though I still go to the Waikato home games my expectations have changed, which says as much about me, as a fan, as it does about the performance on the field. I reckon only 2000-3000 turned up for the last home game, which was a must-win. There are a number of season ticket holders in our area that only attend Chiefs games and might turn up for the occasional Waikato game. The WRU better hope they have good sponsors because I doubt they make much from gate sales.
@ARHS It's not just players that Waikato has lost. There are 2 handy coaches at Wellington and North Harbour from the province.
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Can we please stop all pretending Whetu Douglas was a star that the Chiefs missed. No-one else spotted it either and everyone was caught unawares.
Personally, I still don't think he's that good, but just hit form in a form team at a good time. Half a season and he's a star! Or maybe he's as good as his many years at Waikato suggest.
And now the bleating is how they're stupid to leave out Mitch Jacobson. Can't see it myself. I'd pick Karpik over him any day. I don't care how good he was as a kid -- loads of U20 stars turn out petty average.
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I don't rate Karpik that highly myself and I've seen plenty of him up close. Boshier will be the backup to Cane - he's a much better player.
As to Mitch Jacobson, I thought he was the best performed Waikato player in the games I watched. I didn't see the BOP-Waikato game, which I assume he went head-to-head with Karpik. Jacobson was the captain of the Chiefs Dev team so is there or there abouts. He's still young so has time given an opportunity.
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@chester-draws Yes all he did was hold his own, nothing special about him at all and the Chiefs had better players anyway.
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Interesting to raise this thread again now that the super squads have been announced.
The Chiefs have two thirds of their players from within their boundaries (which is about par I imagine)
There are 4 Mitre10 Cup teams to select from and the split is Taranaki 8, Waikato 7, BOP 6 and CM 4.Only HB gets on par with selections from outside, with their 4 equalling CM.
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@crucial said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
Interesting to raise this thread again now that the super squads have been announced.
The Chiefs have two thirds of their players from within their boundaries (which is about par I imagine)
There are 4 Mitre10 Cup teams to select from and the split is Taranaki 8, Waikato 7, BOP 6 and CM 4.Only HB gets on par with selections from outside, with their 4 equalling CM.
And, a few of our worst selections a 'local' players. Fuck that, I want the best team for the Chiefs. I can support both Waikato and the Chiefs as different things.
I'm already pretty non-plussed with Cooper.
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@gt12 said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
@crucial said in Waikato and the Chiefs:
Interesting to raise this thread again now that the super squads have been announced.
The Chiefs have two thirds of their players from within their boundaries (which is about par I imagine)
There are 4 Mitre10 Cup teams to select from and the split is Taranaki 8, Waikato 7, BOP 6 and CM 4.Only HB gets on par with selections from outside, with their 4 equalling CM.
And, a few of our worst selections a 'local' players. Fuck that, I want the best team for the Chiefs. I can support both Waikato and the Chiefs as different things.
I'm already pretty non-plussed with Cooper.
Well the Naki wanted their own franchise and it looks like they may have one.
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/provincial/100175971/moohoo-where-are-waikatos-all-blacks
This story from stuff this morning is a good companion piece to this thread. Waikato's recent history makes dismal reading, and seems to have gone hand in hand with the Chiefs' improvement in Super Rugby using central contracting to it's full extreme.
. It will be interesting what the make up of the development team will be.
