Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks
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@majorrage I'm not sure why you targeted this thread at PIs, it seems you put too much stock in twitter exchanges and one discussion with Tialata (a guy who spent 6 years in the ABs playing 43 tests).
Sopoaga hasn't ever said he wants to switch to Samoa (or the Cooks) and Piutau's wanting to switch as come after he shot his load. I think Piutau really thought he would have played in the 2015 RWC so likely could have started his NH contract as a WC winner, but he got that wrong. Hell Bundee Aki left and decided to play for Ireland.
Also, it's not as if it's only PIs that ditch NZ in their prime. Hayman, McAlister and Evans left when they had years of AB matches to play. Recent AB 10s Tom Taylor and Colin Slade left recently and they were similar ages or younger than Sopoaga at the time.
Also, I don't think there's any point making comparisons to league, the Kiwis have been an amateur shit show over the past two years and despite all the hype only three players on the Kiwis radar (JT, Fusitua and Taukeiaho) defected to Tonga and none of the Samoans did. The ABs are never going to be a clusterfuck like the Kiwis (unless Mitchell comes back or Hammett managed to somehow fall his way to the top I guess :)).
Anyway, Lima is a loss, but Cruden was the bigger loss.
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@chris-b I still think the biggest loss isnt necessarily frontline ABs, more those on the fringes of AB and definite Super rugby starters, these are the guys that leave bigger holes to fill as they are the ones who will end up playing rugby for thier province while the ABs are out and as such probably contribute better to the local scenes.
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Ultimately the appeal of the ABs to the players is probably a lot closer to that of the Patriots, Storm, Spurs, Red Wings of the 90s and Warriors (the Golden State variety) than they myth/legend crap that gets trotted out by NH scribes and marketing agencies.
Teams like the ABs provide a stable organization with a recent history of winning, a collection of elite players and top tier coaching. We've seen time and time again there is a group of players - usually the ultra driven ones - that will sacrifice money and fame to play in that environment.
Unlike those professional teams that theoretically have an expiry date, as a national team providing we keep replenishing the cupboards with new talent (or run off our elite talent with a Mitch style coach) the sun should never set on the ABs.
Not every player is wired that way and thank God for that because it makes it a lot easier to have them leave voluntarily than check out mentally and still be under NZRU contract.
I have absolutely no issue with Lima leaving - he already missed RWC selection in 2015. I'm sure it sucked at the time but Lima doesn't owe the ABs or NZRU anything, especially given the role he has been given in the AB set up. He has no obligation to hang around and see if the he required for the next RWC when there is every chance he might get the Weepu 2007 treatment.
The other thing we often forget, while not relevant to Lima, is that for fringe All Blacks Super Rugby and ITM Cup is a bulk of their "job". If you were playing in a toxic environment for the Blues at some point over the past 10 years I don't expect the two caps off the bench for the ABs as injury call up to weigh strongly in your decision making.
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Thing is Salacious, they're not choosing between money and satisfaction. They're choosing between quite a lot of money with satisfaction and a bit more money. Stephen Donald won't be poor.
Once you've made a bit the extra stops bringing much satisfaction. People with a million in the bank are happier than those with none, of course. People with two million are often less happy, because they've had to make too many sacrifices along the way.
David Lee Roth is welcome to his boat. I wouldn't want it if it came with his string of broken relationships though.
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@chester-draws said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
Thing is Salacious, they're not choosing between money and satisfaction. They're choosing between quite a lot of money with satisfaction and a bit more money. Stephen Donald won't be poor.
Once you've made a bit the extra stops bringing much satisfaction. People with a million in the bank are happier than those with none, of course. People with two million are often less happy, because they've had to make too many sacrifices along the way.
David Lee Roth is welcome to his boat. I wouldn't want it if it came with his string of broken relationships though.
It's fine for him though, he's just a Gigilo, everywhere he goes.
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@rotated said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
Teams like the ABs provide a stable organization with a recent history of winning, a collection of elite players and top tier coaching. We've seen time and time again there is a group of players - usually the ultra driven ones - that will sacrifice money
and fameto play in that environment.A minor quibble. Fame you get playing for tge ABs.
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@rotated said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
Unlike those professional teams that theoretically have an expiry date, as a national team providing we keep replenishing the cupboards with new talent (or run off our elite talent with a Mitch style coach) the sun should never set on the ABs.
That's an optimistic view. I think you can look at things another way and say to date (in this particular crisis) we've been lucky to have competent hands on the tiller - Tew, Henry, Hansen, Smith, Shand and various others - but, we're only a small handful of missteps away from being South Africa (or Brazil). I more tend to think we're in a potentially unsustainable position - it's hard to see where we are going to generate much more revenue from, so we've basically got to hope that the Euro rugby competitions are an even bigger house of cards - rather than something that is going to move in the direction of soccer - getting bigger, richer and offering a next level dimension of player payments.
I'm sure it sucked at the time but Lima doesn't owe the ABs or NZRU anything, especially given the role he has been given in the AB set up. He has no obligation to hang around and see if the he required for the next RWC....
He doesn't owe them anything? Created himself as an elite level rugby player did he? Paid for every bit of tuition he's received? Developed all of the intellectual property he's taking with him?
We need to move away from accepting this bollocks that playing for the All Blacks is just another job. It's not. The All Blacks are highly culturally significant to New Zealand. Is Lima leaving like taking an ancient Maori artifact and selling it to the Rockefellers? Not quite - but, to paraphrase Pulp Fiction, it's the same ballpark.
If you (a budding All Black) don't want to buy into that - don't get on the bus in the first place!
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@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
He doesn't owe them anything? Created himself as an elite level rugby player did he? Paid for every bit of tuition he's received? Developed all of the intellectual property he's taking with him?
We need to move away from accepting this bollocks that playing for the All Blacks is just another job. It's not. The All Blacks are highly culturally significant to New Zealand. Is Lima leaving like taking an ancient Maori artifact and selling it to the Rockefellers? Not quite - but, to paraphrase Pulp Fiction, it's the same ballpark.
If you (a budding All Black) don't want to buy into that - don't get on the bus in the first place!
It cuts both ways - Lima got selected in rep teams etc because he had talent - because he helped those teams win. It's not like they just picked some random player and turned him into a test quality player.
Lima not sticking around for the World Cup - well the ABs didnt want to select him for the 2015 World Cup - one each.
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@kiwimurph said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
He doesn't owe them anything? Created himself as an elite level rugby player did he? Paid for every bit of tuition he's received? Developed all of the intellectual property he's taking with him?
We need to move away from accepting this bollocks that playing for the All Blacks is just another job. It's not. The All Blacks are highly culturally significant to New Zealand. Is Lima leaving like taking an ancient Maori artifact and selling it to the Rockefellers? Not quite - but, to paraphrase Pulp Fiction, it's the same ballpark.
If you (a budding All Black) don't want to buy into that - don't get on the bus in the first place!
It cuts both ways - Lima got selected in rep teams etc because he had talent - because he helped those teams win. It's not like they just picked some random player and turned him into a test quality player.
Lima not sticking around for the World Cup - well the ABs didnt want to select him for the 2015 World Cup - one each.
No, it's not one each.
When has guaranteed selection ever been part of the All Blacks?
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@chris-b I'm just seeing it from his point of view. Think about it this way - he probably feels like he has already peaked in his time in the AB jersey - in 2015 he won a Super Rugby title and nailed his one chance in the AB jersey and couldnt crack the RWC squad.
If there was one year Lima was going to get some serious game time in black it was 2017 - Beauden was hardly setting the world on fire at 10 and we had injuries at 15 but the ABs made it clear they will stick with Beauden at 10 and a rookie at 15 rather than shift Beauden to 15 and Lima to 10.
Looking forward Lima sees Ben Smith and Jordie coming back at 15 and Richie M and others being options at 10 and sees the writing on the wall.
Simply painting Lima as the bad guy is oversimplifying it in my opinion. It's not all that much different from when Evans left.
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@kiwimurph said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@chris-b I'm just seeing it from his point of view. Think about it this way - he probably feels like he has already peaked in his time in the AB jersey - in 2015 he won a Super Rugby title and nailed his one chance in the AB jersey and couldnt crack the RWC squad.
If there was one year Lima was going to get some serious game time in black it was 2017 - Beauden was hardly setting the world on fire at 10 and we had injuries at 15 but the ABs made it clear they will stick with Beauden at 10 and a rookie at 15 rather than shift Beauden to 15 and Lima to 10.
Looking forward Lima sees Ben Smith and Jordie coming back at 15 and Richie M and others being options at 10 and sees the writing on the wall.
Simply painting Lima as the bad guy is oversimplifying it in my opinion. It's not all that much different from when Evans left.
Or Hayman
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@kiwimurph Yep - probably all true, but I'm saying we can't afford to look at it from an individual's point of view. I think the deal with the ABs has always been clear - some people are McCaw and some are Marty Holah.
Now, Lima may be going with Hansen's blessing - and if he is, that's fine. But, I'd be pretty surprised if that's the case. I think specifically the deal should be that once you sign up, you stick around until the coach says it's fine to go.
Legally, of course, that's not enforceable - so we need to use similar tactics that George Nepia and Joe Karam were on the receiving end of.
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@tim See the comment on Nepia and Karam.
You could make big bucks playing rugby league compared to making nothing playing union - but, very few went.
A start is to change the mindset of "good on you for taking the money" and articles like Gifford's saying it was a wise move by Lima.
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@hooroo said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@kiwimurph said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@chris-b I'm just seeing it from his point of view. Think about it this way - he probably feels like he has already peaked in his time in the AB jersey - in 2015 he won a Super Rugby title and nailed his one chance in the AB jersey and couldnt crack the RWC squad.
If there was one year Lima was going to get some serious game time in black it was 2017 - Beauden was hardly setting the world on fire at 10 and we had injuries at 15 but the ABs made it clear they will stick with Beauden at 10 and a rookie at 15 rather than shift Beauden to 15 and Lima to 10.
Looking forward Lima sees Ben Smith and Jordie coming back at 15 and Richie M and others being options at 10 and sees the writing on the wall.
Simply painting Lima as the bad guy is oversimplifying it in my opinion. It's not all that much different from when Evans left.
Or Hayman
Or Lucky Luke. I remember when we lost Ridge and Gallagher in the space of weeks. First and second choice 15s gooone
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@bones said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
So why does Cruden, TKB get a free pass and Sopoaga gets rounded on? Luatua is hard done by, Lima is a prick? It's all a bit odd.
Are you sure you're quoting the same people's opinions? Are the same people saying x about Luatua but a about Sopoaga?
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