Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks
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i would argue that both luatua and sopoaga were a little hard done by by the selectors at times, and that would have played a part in their decisions to leave. likewise someone like nick evans back then. if you feel like you've done enough to get selected and aren't, or improved what the selectors have asked you to improve and still not been picked, or have done all you can and still not quite made it, then you're much more likely to cash in.
piutau never had that as a mitigating factor.
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@taniwharugby said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
Piutau for me, was a huge shock he left when he did, appeared on the cusp of a long AB career, but bailed for the money, albeit a lot of money, so was hard to understand.
Yeah, I thought he would have a career like Mils and probably could have.
Slightly off topic but I guess that if you are perceived as a traitor the road to guest appearances and commentating goes out the window in NZ. Obviously being a dickhead doesn't rule it out though, we have had plenty of those.
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I think Piutau could feel a little hard done by - he never put a foot wrong in the ABs and couldnt nail down a starting spot in 2+ seasons (meanwhile Mils was a starter in his first season in Black).
Unfortunately for Piutau his 2 AB seasons before he made his decision (2013-14) coincided with peak Julian Savea.
The irony is I think Piutau would have passed Savea in 2015/16 given Savea's form (if Piutau had signed an extension at the end of 2014).
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@bovidae yeah. You come home take a look at your baby's smile and I'd imagine the concept of who you're most loyal to is a straight forward one.
But sure, like many things in the world it's just not the way it used to be - loyalty to NZ rugby that is.
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@siam said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@bovidae yeah. You come home take a look at your baby's smile and I'd imagine the concept of who you're most loyal to is a straight forward one.
But sure, like many things in the world it's just not the way it used to be - loyalty to NZ rugby that is.
Well no it's not but that's the way of the world. I'd imagine most on here would happily uproot to another job if offered more cash, better location etc. It's a pretty high and mighty attitude from some on here to expect fringe ABs to hang around just in case they might get the call. Also none on here know how Hansen has treated Sopoaga behind the scenes either.
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@mn5 Being an All Black is not just another job though.
It is a position of great privilege and of clear cultural significance to New Zealand. If you think it's just another job and a stepping stone to higher pay and a better job then I reckon you've got no business being there in the first place.
Fuck those guys - they are sell outs and deserve to be treated as such.
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@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@mn5 Being an All Black is not just another job though.
It is a position of great privilege and of clear cultural significance to New Zealand. If you think it's just another job and a stepping stone to higher pay and a better job then I reckon you've got no business being there in the first place.
Fuck those guys - they are sell outs and deserve to be treated as such.
That's your view but I can see it being increasingly less prevalent as time goes on.
Again, you're not privy to what goes on behind the scenes. For all any of us know he might be treated like shit. None of us really know these guys and we sure as shit don't have a right to try and dictate what they should do.
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Are these Euro contracts guaranteed money? (Just asking.)
Seems to me these players aren’t foolish - this is the concussion-era — they can see one head slam on the turf ending a career and paydays evaporating in a puff of smoke, then it’s back to work on a construction crew for 1/20th the salary.
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@mn5 That depends.
When someone turns up with $50 million and carries off Beaudie and Brodie and our RWC chances with them, there will be a few more people in my camp.
You see, my view is classically Tocquevillian - that the liberal-democratic-capitalist matrix that we all inhabit depends for its liveability upon pre-liberal forces and habits, unchosen obligations and allegiances: the communities of tribe and family.
But, I fear that liberalism has dissolved all these inheritances, leaving only a selfish individualism and soft bureaucratic despotism locked in a strange embrace.
It will reduce rich cultures to consumer products, smash social and familial relations, and leave us all the isolated and mutually suspicious inhabitants of an "anticulture" from which many genuine human goods have fled.
Which seems a bit like what is happening @Tim?
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@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@mn5 That depends.
When someone turns up with $50 million and carries off Beaudie and Brodie and our RWC chances with them, there will be a few more people in my camp.
You see, my view is classically Tocquevillian - that the liberal-democratic-capitalist matrix that we all inhabit depends for its liveability upon pre-liberal forces and habits, unchosen obligations and allegiances: the communities of tribe and family.
But, I fear that liberalism has dissolved all these inheritances, leaving only a selfish individualism and soft bureaucratic despotism locked in a strange embrace.
It will reduce rich cultures to consumer products, smash social and familial relations, and leave us all the isolated and mutually suspicious inhabitants of an "anticulture" from which many genuine human goods have fled.
Which seems a bit like what is happening @Tim?
Can you try and get your point across with less big words please? I'm just a simple bloke.
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You're all looking at the guys that have left; I think there have been and still are plenty that stick around. I don't think the significance of the jersey has diminished that much in favour of the coin as some of you seem to suggest.
Crotty stayed and has become an incumbent. Todd still getting caps every season (may surpass Savea if the latter doesn't improve), Tuipulotu unlikely to become a regular starter, but still there; Romano still getting picked despite his age; Toomaga-Allen (admittedly plagued by injury, but I don't see him leave any time soon), Crockett (same as Romano). Even more on the outer fringes are players like Coltman and Parsons. All could be forgiven if they'd leave for a better paid contract overseas. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them do this year, like Sops. Doesn't mean the jersey means less to them; it may just mean that they are realistic about their place in the pecking order and their chances to be picked (as a starter or sub).
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@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@mn5 That depends.
When someone turns up with $50 million and carries off Beaudie and Brodie and our RWC chances with them, there will be a few more people in my camp.
Not the same situation. None of Luatua, Piutau or Sopoaga were AB starters.
Beaudie and Brodie would be 2 of the highest paid ABs and most influential players for the best team in the world.
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@kiwimurph It's just an extension of the trend and a matter of time before we lose someone elite.
In fact, it's already happened with Carl Hayman - we just didn't notice that badly because Owen Franks happened to stick his hand up and during that time the overseas clubs hadn't cut away so much of our depth.
If Beaudy took a cash offer tomorrow, it would be a disaster - whereas if we still had Cruden, Sopoaga and Slade in the bank we'd be thinking that's disappointing but we'll be OK.
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@chris-b said in Defining Who We Are ... NZ All Blacks:
@mn5 That depends.
When someone turns up with $50 million and carries off Beaudie and Brodie and our RWC chances with them, there will be a few more people in my camp.
You see, my view is classically Tocquevillian - that the liberal-democratic-capitalist matrix that we all inhabit depends for its liveability upon pre-liberal forces and habits, unchosen obligations and allegiances: the communities of tribe and family.
But, I fear that liberalism has dissolved all these inheritances, leaving only a selfish individualism and soft bureaucratic despotism locked in a strange embrace.
It will reduce rich cultures to consumer products, smash social and familial relations, and leave us all the isolated and mutually suspicious inhabitants of an "anticulture" from which many genuine human goods have fled.
Which seems a bit like what is happening @Tim?
Holy shit that's deep, you need to contribute more to the Politics forum to drag it out of the gutter..
Edit - OK I read the article and see you just plagiarized it. Well played.
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@no-quarter So I don't need to come to the politics forum after all.
That's good - I don't have the time to spend on googling the proof that I'm the smartest tool in the shed.
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@chris-b But to me it's a different situation.
Beauden's weighing up 'I get the chance to be an AB legend whilst being the highest paid player in NZ - i'm close enough as it gets to guaranteed AB starting XV selection for the next 5 years' whereas these fringe guys are thinking 'I think i've reached my playing/financial peak at NZ (i've hit a ceiling), do I hang around for scraps and risk injury etc or do I go make hay whilst the sun shines'
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It is a long time ago now that I don't recall accurately, but didn't Luke McAlister leave similarly to Piutau, a guy that displayed immense potential but left without giving himself a genuine shot at realizing it?
