England v South Africa
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@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@crucial said in England v South Africa:
@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
Judging by the discussions on here and the twitter comments from other players there is enough doubt to suggest the call could have gone either way. I reckon Gardner got it spot on (but of course I would say that). I was, however, very nervous at the time as it could quite easily have gone the other way and if it had there would have been the same level of debate.
Bias aside. I’m curious about the reason you think AG got the call correct
Not sure I can quite put the bias aside but I'll try. First off it did look dodgy in real time and I'm not surprised it went to the TMO. The replay showed initial contact with the shoulder, which is to be expected and then the left arm coming round to wrap. The force of the collision bounced both players backwards and the wrap could not be completed. Gardner's call was along the lines of saying Farrell had made enough of an attempt at wrapping. Now that is a subjective call and so each will have their own view on it. I think it was a good call, others don't. A close one either way.
Slow mo and individual frames can often tell conflicting stories, as a for instance I've seen one where it looks as though Esterhuizen had fended off Farrell with a forearm to the head. Now I don't for one moment feel that he did but in isolation it did not look good.
I think that shoulder charge was about as close as I've seen to what SBW did against the lions, just OF was lucky enough to not hit on the top of the head. There was no wrapping of the arms because it was a shoulder charge, not because he bounced off to quick.
@bones said in England v South Africa:
@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@crucial said in England v South Africa:
@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
Judging by the discussions on here and the twitter comments from other players there is enough doubt to suggest the call could have gone either way. I reckon Gardner got it spot on (but of course I would say that). I was, however, very nervous at the time as it could quite easily have gone the other way and if it had there would have been the same level of debate.
Bias aside. I’m curious about the reason you think AG got the call correct
Not sure I can quite put the bias aside but I'll try. First off it did look dodgy in real time and I'm not surprised it went to the TMO. The replay showed initial contact with the shoulder, which is to be expected and then the left arm coming round to wrap. The force of the collision bounced both players backwards and the wrap could not be completed. Gardner's call was along the lines of saying Farrell had made enough of an attempt at wrapping. Now that is a subjective call and so each will have their own view on it. I think it was a good call, others don't. A close one either way.
Slow mo and individual frames can often tell conflicting stories, as a for instance I've seen one where it looks as though Esterhuizen had fended off Farrell with a forearm to the head. Now I don't for one moment feel that he did but in isolation it did not look good.
I think that shoulder charge was about as close as I've seen to what SBW did against the lions, just OF was lucky enough to not hit on the top of the head. There was no wrapping of the arms because it was a shoulder charge, not because he bounced off to quick.
Like I said "Now that is a subjective call and so each will have their own view on it."
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@crucial said in England v South Africa:
@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@sparky said in England v South Africa:
Ugliest thing about this game was seeing Faf De Klerk watch from a corporate box. Sale Shark didn't have a game this weekend. They should have released one of the best players in the world to play international Rugby for his chosen country yesterday.
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree, Sale would likely be fined heavily by EPR.
Fined for what?
Genuine questionReleasing non-England players out of the International window.
@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@crucial said in England v South Africa:
@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@sparky said in England v South Africa:
Ugliest thing about this game was seeing Faf De Klerk watch from a corporate box. Sale Shark didn't have a game this weekend. They should have released one of the best players in the world to play international Rugby for his chosen country yesterday.
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree, Sale would likely be fined heavily by EPR.
Fined for what?
Genuine questionReleasing non-England players out of the International window.
Are you seriously saying that EPR clubs have a deal with the RFU that they will release England players but if any non England players are released there will be heavy fines?
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@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@crucial said in England v South Africa:
@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@sparky said in England v South Africa:
Ugliest thing about this game was seeing Faf De Klerk watch from a corporate box. Sale Shark didn't have a game this weekend. They should have released one of the best players in the world to play international Rugby for his chosen country yesterday.
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree, Sale would likely be fined heavily by EPR.
Fined for what?
Genuine questionReleasing non-England players out of the International window.
Are you seriously saying that EPR clubs have a deal with the RFU that they will release England players but if any non England players are released there will be heavy fines?
The RFU pay a decent wedge to the clubs for access to players and release outside of test windows if applicable. Releasing players for free outside of test windows to other unions would probably harm their negotiating position.
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@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@crucial said in England v South Africa:
@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@sparky said in England v South Africa:
Ugliest thing about this game was seeing Faf De Klerk watch from a corporate box. Sale Shark didn't have a game this weekend. They should have released one of the best players in the world to play international Rugby for his chosen country yesterday.
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree, Sale would likely be fined heavily by EPR.
Fined for what?
Genuine questionReleasing non-England players out of the International window.
Are you seriously saying that EPR clubs have a deal with the RFU that they will release England players but if any non England players are released there will be heavy fines?
@crucial said in England v South Africa:
@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@crucial said in England v South Africa:
@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@sparky said in England v South Africa:
Ugliest thing about this game was seeing Faf De Klerk watch from a corporate box. Sale Shark didn't have a game this weekend. They should have released one of the best players in the world to play international Rugby for his chosen country yesterday.
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree, Sale would likely be fined heavily by EPR.
Fined for what?
Genuine questionReleasing non-England players out of the International window.
Are you seriously saying that EPR clubs have a deal with the RFU that they will release England players but if any non England players are released there will be heavy fines?
What I do know is that both Northampton and Bath got fined for releasing Welsh players outside the window. £60K in each case.
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The RFU pay a decent wedge to the clubs for access to players and release outside of test windows if applicable. Releasing players for free outside of test windows to other unions would probably harm their negotiating position.
@margin_walker said in England v South Africa:
The RFU pay a decent wedge to the clubs for access to players and release outside of test windows if applicable. Releasing players for free outside of test windows to other unions would probably harm their negotiating position.
I understand that. It’s the threat of a large fine part I don’t get.
That deliberately stops other teams from even trying to get their players.
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@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@crucial said in England v South Africa:
@catogrande said in England v South Africa:
@sparky said in England v South Africa:
Ugliest thing about this game was seeing Faf De Klerk watch from a corporate box. Sale Shark didn't have a game this weekend. They should have released one of the best players in the world to play international Rugby for his chosen country yesterday.
Whilst I wholeheartedly agree, Sale would likely be fined heavily by EPR.
Fined for what?
Genuine questionReleasing non-England players out of the International window.
Are you seriously saying that EPR clubs have a deal with the RFU that they will release England players but if any non England players are released there will be heavy fines?
@crucial yes the RFU pay premier rugby money, a lot, to get access to the England elite squad outside of the international windows for games and training time. Premier rugby have signed an agreement to not release foreign players, Northampton got fined 60k£ for releasing George North for some Wales matches.
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@stargazer said in England v South Africa:
Joke.
Be very interesting to see the ruling on the first similar tackle next week.
And good Farrell won't be the excuse next week.
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IMO both sides the losers here. Neither deserved it. Boks will be pleased that they are in good shape in many areas: midfield, scrum, etc.. But also some glaring weaknesses (e.g. openside when Flo not playing), which Rassie only has nine months to try and fix. Their top XV is very formidable, and if they could bring the squad up to that level they would be real contenders for RWC.
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To me it's a 'no-arms' tackle the way his right arm is trailing out behind like a flag or penant. It is not 'cocked' ready to wrap - it only wraps because of the momentum flinging it forward. Same as SBW, however SBW hit his head red card all day. Farrell just a penalty.
after -
Not surprised there's no citing as I don't think it met the RC threshold.
(YC for me.)
Question: is the law must attempt to wrap arms? Or is it must wrap arms?
@booboo said in England v South Africa:
Not surprised there's no citing as I don't think it met the RC threshold.
(YC for me.)
Question: is the law must attempt to wrap arms? Or is it must wrap arms?
It’s ‘must grasp’
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IMO It wasn't to the head. Time of impact
head then comes forward from the impact, boks' chin assaults Farrells shoulder
Not high IMO, but no arms "stiff arm tackle"
A ‘stiff-arm tackle’ is dangerous play. A player makes a stiff-arm tackle when using a stiff-arm to strike an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kickLeft arm 'cocked and ready to wrap, right arm backwards and 'stiff'
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@crucial yes the RFU pay premier rugby money, a lot, to get access to the England elite squad outside of the international windows for games and training time. Premier rugby have signed an agreement to not release foreign players, Northampton got fined 60k£ for releasing George North for some Wales matches.
@machpants said in England v South Africa:
@crucial yes the RFU pay premier rugby money, a lot, to get access to the England elite squad outside of the international windows for games and training time. Premier rugby have signed an agreement to not release foreign players, Northampton got fined 60k£ for releasing George North for some Wales matches.
Cool. So England can buy their desired players and stop others from having theirs. I’m happy to use that one in a discussion with an England fan.
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IMO It wasn't to the head. Time of impact
head then comes forward from the impact, boks' chin assaults Farrells shoulder
Not high IMO, but no arms "stiff arm tackle"A ‘stiff-arm tackle’ is dangerous play. A player makes a stiff-arm tackle when using a stiff-arm to strike an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kickLeft arm 'cocked and ready to wrap, right arm backwards and 'stiff'
@machpants Fair enough, but to me no effort to wrap arms until AFTER impact.
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@machpants Fair enough, but to me no effort to wrap arms until AFTER impact.
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@machpants said in England v South Africa:
@crucial yes the RFU pay premier rugby money, a lot, to get access to the England elite squad outside of the international windows for games and training time. Premier rugby have signed an agreement to not release foreign players, Northampton got fined 60k£ for releasing George North for some Wales matches.
Cool. So England can buy their desired players and stop others from having theirs. I’m happy to use that one in a discussion with an England fan.
@crucial said in England v South Africa:
@machpants said in England v South Africa:
@crucial yes the RFU pay premier rugby money, a lot, to get access to the England elite squad outside of the international windows for games and training time. Premier rugby have signed an agreement to not release foreign players, Northampton got fined 60k£ for releasing George North for some Wales matches.
Cool. So England can buy their desired players and stop others from having theirs. I’m happy to use that one in a discussion with an England fan.
Yeah Premier rugby give a tiny shit about the state of England rugby, unlike soccer England rugby is the main driver for rugby supporters/money. But they give less than zero shits about international rugby, and if I was a business like them I'd be the same. Not their job to worry about the state of the Boks cos all their players are playing overseas. COmes down to moronic French and English RU's not gripping professionalism back in the day and centralising everything. Too late now
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@machpants said in England v South Africa:
@crucial yes the RFU pay premier rugby money, a lot, to get access to the England elite squad outside of the international windows for games and training time. Premier rugby have signed an agreement to not release foreign players, Northampton got fined 60k£ for releasing George North for some Wales matches.
Cool. So England can buy their desired players and stop others from having theirs. I’m happy to use that one in a discussion with an England fan.
@crucial said in England v South Africa:
@machpants said in England v South Africa:
@crucial yes the RFU pay premier rugby money, a lot, to get access to the England elite squad outside of the international windows for games and training time. Premier rugby have signed an agreement to not release foreign players, Northampton got fined 60k£ for releasing George North for some Wales matches.
Cool. So England can buy their desired players and stop others from having theirs. I’m happy to use that one in a discussion with an England fan.
It's a bit more complicated than that. There is an agreement between the RFU and the EPR which includes a subsidy from the RFU for the release of England players for designated training camps and matches. There is no such agreement between any other unions and EPR, doesn't mean there couldn't be, but highly unlikely as tis would remove the disincentive for players to play in another country.
