England vs All Blacks
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Here's Walrus article 1:
England were subject to ‘total injustice’
England wins over the All Blacks are so rare. That is why yesterday’s decision not to allow what would have been the winning try by Sam Underhill will go down as a travesty.
Before the nuts and bolts of the call by Marius Jonker, the television match official, we should beware: if the play before a touchdown is going to be called back for possible offside at rucks then every try will have to be examined. Rear-feet offside is pandemic in the game, and it is almost certain that at the rucks and mauls yesterday, Courtney Lawes was the only player all afternoon who actually did stay onside.
The defending team at a ruck can only move across the offside line the instant that the ball is lifted off the turf. Television helped us out yesterday by freezing the frame after TJ Perenara had clearly lifted the ball, by plastering a vivid yellow line across the field to represent the offside line. Lawes was still onside.
At 6ft 6in, Lawes is a considerable athlete. He did not have to cheat to be in a position to make a chargedown. In fact, his discipline as he moved sideways to the side of the ruck was impeccable. He looked up briefly to see if the referee was happy with him, and although Mr Garces is at liberty to tell Lawes to go back, he did not. Total injustice
In frame one, below, we see Lawes onside as Perenara lays hands on the ball at the base of the ruck
The All Black scrum-half has clearly picked it up and Lawes advances to close him down
The lock’s height helps him make the charge down from which a try apparently results. TMO Marius Jonker, however, tells referee Jerome Garces to disallow the score for offside
@jc quoted the Walrus in England vs All Blacks:
Courtney Lawes was the only player all afternoon who actually did stay onside.
By being in front of all the off-side players apparently.
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@jc said in England vs All Blacks:
... and Walrus article 2:
In any match that they lose, New Zealand tend to complain about refereeing decisions for decades afterwards. If England apply those same standards to yesterday afternoon then they will be bitter to the end of time. A few minutes before the end of this drama, replacement scrum-half TJ Perenara’s kick was charged down by Courtney Lawes and Sam Underhill picked up the ball, utterly bamboozled Beauden Barrett and dived over the line.
Jerome Garces, the referee, awarded the try and Twickenham celebrated wildly what would have been a thoroughly deserved victory. But then Marius Jonker, the TMO, attracted the referee’s attention and the incident went upstairs. There it festered, and was reversed. The officials got it utterly wrong, England were robbed.
It is also worth mentioning that rear feet offside is something ignored by officials the world over and, indeed, as England attacked desperately in the last few minutes and carried the ball through phases, the All Blacks were offside in six consecutive phases by a big margin. If Lawes was offside then the officials missed about 100 similar offences by both sides.
England played to a high level, with devil, purpose, structure and a swarming defence in which Maro Itoje was regal and Sam Underhill in career-revival mood. They led by 15-0 in the first half, and they could have won it in any number of ways without the shocking decision at the end. They opted for two drive-over tries from penalties at the start of the second half, but could not quite make it, and although they were overhauled for the first time in the match after the break there was never any sense that New Zealand were taking control.
Indeed, in that first period and even until the end, not only did Itoje obliterate the two New Zealand locks in all phases, but Underhill and Kyle Sinckler started showing the fruits of their promise.
New Zealand won this game not only thanks to the TMO at the end but also due to the only recognisable platform of pressure they had at the end of the first half. The lack of any true celebration by the men in black either on the final whistle or at the drab presentation of some meaningless trophy spoke volumes.
Up and at ‘em: Sam Underhill clatters into the New Zealand defence
Up and at ‘em: Sam Underhill clatters into the New Zealand defence
ROBBIE STEPHENSON
England made the perfect start, scoring two tries and completely knocking New Zealand out of their stride. They swarmed all over them at close quarters and around the fringes and the 15-0 lead was nothing more than they deserved.The first try came after only two minutes when Brodie Retallick had failed to gather the kick-off. England rumbled on, won the ball from a solid scrummage, and then Sinckler and Itoje drove on powerfully. When the ball came back to Ben Youngs, he found Chris Ashton out wide and the prodigal wing cruised over in the corner.
Soon after that England went driving on again. Sinckler was at the head of it and when the move faltered Owen Farrell fired over a drop goal for an 8-0 lead.
The second England try was of huge significance in more ways than one. Elliot Daly gave the hosts an attacking lineout with a long kick, Itoje caught the ball and that almost extinct beast, the driving maul, was seen again on the fields of England. England drove on dynamically; two or three of the backs joined in and Dylan Hartley scored under the pile; Farrell’s conversion made it 15-0.
England desperately needed to hang on until half-time and as New Zealand launched their best attacking move near the interval, they were holding out against frantic attacks launched by Barrett. Mark Wilson was eventually penalised for not rolling away and the All Blacks opted for the scrum. Ryan Crotty took the ball after the heel and made serious ground. The ball came back to Barrett, whose inside pass set up Damian McKenzie to score.
The momentum swung further in New Zealand’s favour just before the interval, first when Farrell made a howler and put the restart out of play. From the resulting All Black attack on the stroke of half-time Barrett kicked a penalty. On 46 minutes with New Zealand now playing rapid rugby, Barrett dropped a goal to bring it back to 15-13.
England desperately needed a fiery gesture and it came when Farrell opted to go for the drive from a lineout. The hosts made great ground and forced the All Blacks to concede a penalty and then they went for exactly the same play.
The second effort also fell short when Sinckler knocked on and New Zealand could have scored a vital try when Ardie Savea looked in the clear only to drop the ball, showing that some of his attacking play was almost as bad as some of his defending. But by that stage they were 16-15 up courtesy of Barrett’s penalty.
To their credit, and as they did against South Africa last week, England finished strongly and although they were handicapped by losing four lineouts, the likes of Jonny May and Danny Care were undaunted.
So too was Underhill on his way to the line for his try. Barrett was the sole defender and oddly he turned his back. When he looked again he saw Underhill diving over, and Garces awarded the try.
He did not hear the voice of the TMO wheedling over the communications system. Maybe someone should have turned him off at the mains.
I'm 100% convinced the Walrus was stroking his own cock when he wrote that bit.
@mn5 said in England vs All Blacks:
@jc said in England vs All Blacks:
... and Walrus article 2:
In any match that they lose, New Zealand tend to complain about refereeing decisions for decades afterwards. If England apply those same standards to yesterday afternoon then they will be bitter to the end of time. A few minutes before the end of this drama, replacement scrum-half TJ Perenara’s kick was charged down by Courtney Lawes and Sam Underhill picked up the ball, utterly bamboozled Beauden Barrett and dived over the line.
Jerome Garces, the referee, awarded the try and Twickenham celebrated wildly what would have been a thoroughly deserved victory. But then Marius Jonker, the TMO, attracted the referee’s attention and the incident went upstairs. There it festered, and was reversed. The officials got it utterly wrong, England were robbed.
It is also worth mentioning that rear feet offside is something ignored by officials the world over and, indeed, as England attacked desperately in the last few minutes and carried the ball through phases, the All Blacks were offside in six consecutive phases by a big margin. If Lawes was offside then the officials missed about 100 similar offences by both sides.
England played to a high level, with devil, purpose, structure and a swarming defence in which Maro Itoje was regal and Sam Underhill in career-revival mood. They led by 15-0 in the first half, and they could have won it in any number of ways without the shocking decision at the end. They opted for two drive-over tries from penalties at the start of the second half, but could not quite make it, and although they were overhauled for the first time in the match after the break there was never any sense that New Zealand were taking control.
Indeed, in that first period and even until the end, not only did Itoje obliterate the two New Zealand locks in all phases, but Underhill and Kyle Sinckler started showing the fruits of their promise.
New Zealand won this game not only thanks to the TMO at the end but also due to the only recognisable platform of pressure they had at the end of the first half. The lack of any true celebration by the men in black either on the final whistle or at the drab presentation of some meaningless trophy spoke volumes.
Up and at ‘em: Sam Underhill clatters into the New Zealand defence
Up and at ‘em: Sam Underhill clatters into the New Zealand defence
ROBBIE STEPHENSON
England made the perfect start, scoring two tries and completely knocking New Zealand out of their stride. They swarmed all over them at close quarters and around the fringes and the 15-0 lead was nothing more than they deserved.The first try came after only two minutes when Brodie Retallick had failed to gather the kick-off. England rumbled on, won the ball from a solid scrummage, and then Sinckler and Itoje drove on powerfully. When the ball came back to Ben Youngs, he found Chris Ashton out wide and the prodigal wing cruised over in the corner.
Soon after that England went driving on again. Sinckler was at the head of it and when the move faltered Owen Farrell fired over a drop goal for an 8-0 lead.
The second England try was of huge significance in more ways than one. Elliot Daly gave the hosts an attacking lineout with a long kick, Itoje caught the ball and that almost extinct beast, the driving maul, was seen again on the fields of England. England drove on dynamically; two or three of the backs joined in and Dylan Hartley scored under the pile; Farrell’s conversion made it 15-0.
England desperately needed to hang on until half-time and as New Zealand launched their best attacking move near the interval, they were holding out against frantic attacks launched by Barrett. Mark Wilson was eventually penalised for not rolling away and the All Blacks opted for the scrum. Ryan Crotty took the ball after the heel and made serious ground. The ball came back to Barrett, whose inside pass set up Damian McKenzie to score.
The momentum swung further in New Zealand’s favour just before the interval, first when Farrell made a howler and put the restart out of play. From the resulting All Black attack on the stroke of half-time Barrett kicked a penalty. On 46 minutes with New Zealand now playing rapid rugby, Barrett dropped a goal to bring it back to 15-13.
England desperately needed a fiery gesture and it came when Farrell opted to go for the drive from a lineout. The hosts made great ground and forced the All Blacks to concede a penalty and then they went for exactly the same play.
The second effort also fell short when Sinckler knocked on and New Zealand could have scored a vital try when Ardie Savea looked in the clear only to drop the ball, showing that some of his attacking play was almost as bad as some of his defending. But by that stage they were 16-15 up courtesy of Barrett’s penalty.
To their credit, and as they did against South Africa last week, England finished strongly and although they were handicapped by losing four lineouts, the likes of Jonny May and Danny Care were undaunted.
So too was Underhill on his way to the line for his try. Barrett was the sole defender and oddly he turned his back. When he looked again he saw Underhill diving over, and Garces awarded the try.
He did not hear the voice of the TMO wheedling over the communications system. Maybe someone should have turned him off at the mains.
I'm 100% convinced the Walrus was stroking his own cock when he wrote that bit.
You're of course assuming he has a cock.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/lathangie/status/1061333362370076674/photo/1A more perpendicular line, but the hind most foot is a few cm left, you can see it blurry between lawes legs and 17's arm
@machpants said in England vs All Blacks:
https://mobile.twitter.com/lathangie/status/1061333362370076674/photo/1A more perpendicular line, but the hind most foot is a few cm left, you can see it blurry between lawes legs and 17's arm
Just wondering whether they take Lawes' right arm into consideration or do they just look at where his right foot is planted when deciding his position in relation to the ruck? I mean it's offside either way but he would be way offside if they measured it from where his right arm is.
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@machpants said in England vs All Blacks:
https://mobile.twitter.com/lathangie/status/1061333362370076674/photo/1A more perpendicular line, but the hind most foot is a few cm left, you can see it blurry between lawes legs and 17's arm
Just wondering whether they take Lawes' right arm into consideration or do they just look at where his right foot is planted when deciding his position in relation to the ruck? I mean it's offside either way but he would be way offside if they measured it from where his right arm is.
@akan004 given that white line isnt at the last mans feet anyway...
BUt I thought they changed the rule, was it this year or last year where your body is supposed to be behind the offside line (obviously not exactly policed very well) rather than just standing behind it?
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@akan004 given that white line isnt at the last mans feet anyway...
BUt I thought they changed the rule, was it this year or last year where your body is supposed to be behind the offside line (obviously not exactly policed very well) rather than just standing behind it?
@taniwharugby I'm confused with where the offside line is tbh. My understanding is if it's a ruck, then the offside line is deemed to be at the hindmost point of your own player, but if it's a tackle then it has to be at the hindmost of any player involved. Not sure if this is a tackle or a ruck or whether it started of as a ruck and then became a tackle.
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@taniwharugby I'm confused with where the offside line is tbh. My understanding is if it's a ruck, then the offside line is deemed to be at the hindmost point of your own player, but if it's a tackle then it has to be at the hindmost of any player involved. Not sure if this is a tackle or a ruck or whether it started of as a ruck and then became a tackle.
@akan004 but in both cases, any player or his own, it is to the left of the white line as you can see the English foot/arm on the ground to the left of Lawes' leg.
@Stargazer posted the appropriate rule/law about 24 hours ago in this thread if you feel compelled ot seek it out
Apparently this one is a tackle, not a ruck, so much for Garces to compute; off side, not off side, accidental off side, penalty no penalty, which one do I have deals on :exploding_head:
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@akan004 but in both cases, any player or his own, it is to the left of the white line as you can see the English foot/arm on the ground to the left of Lawes' leg.
@Stargazer posted the appropriate rule/law about 24 hours ago in this thread if you feel compelled ot seek it out
Apparently this one is a tackle, not a ruck, so much for Garces to compute; off side, not off side, accidental off side, penalty no penalty, which one do I have deals on :exploding_head:
@taniwharugby Yeah I saw Stargazer's post and I agree with it if it's deemed to be a tackle. Just wasn't sure if this was a tackle or a ruck. Seems like it's a tackle.
Do you have any idea if they measure the offside from the offside line to where Lawes' right arm is or just his right foot? Cheers.
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My attempt. From the wide angle, as every thing I am seeing is from the deceptive close view, (and it still looks offside)
Deliberately chose yellow for the photo-shopped line ....
Even from a ruck 5m of the halfway line where the camera is positioned. Look at the difference in angles of the halfway line and the mown line. I have tracked the yellow line against the mower line
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@jegga s favourite coach has given us a staggeringly ( for him ) accurate and magnanimous ( once you stop choking from shock ) insight.
The worlds biggest cockwomble coach said they fucked it..... That's good enough for me. Lets move on, when are they naming the team for Ireland ?
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@jegga s favourite coach has given us a staggeringly ( for him ) accurate and magnanimous ( once you stop choking from shock ) insight.
The worlds biggest cockwomble coach said they fucked it..... That's good enough for me. Lets move on, when are they naming the team for Ireland ?
@mn5 said in England vs All Blacks:
@jegga s favourite coach has given us a staggeringly ( for him ) accurate and magnanimous ( once you stop choking from shock ) insight.
The worlds biggest cockwomble coach said they fucked it..... That's good enough for me. Lets move on, when are they naming the team for Ireland ?
Get fucked ,even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
No one in their right mind will hire him as a coach now so he’s trying to make himself into some sort of comments man . Trouble is he looks and sounds like the sort of person who has a freezer in his garden shed full of women’s feet. -
@taniwharugby Yeah I saw Stargazer's post and I agree with it if it's deemed to be a tackle. Just wasn't sure if this was a tackle or a ruck. Seems like it's a tackle.
Do you have any idea if they measure the offside from the offside line to where Lawes' right arm is or just his right foot? Cheers.
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Only just watched my recording of the game. After reading this tgread and various things in the media i was expecting a totally different game.
What i saw was a dreary, wet kick fest. Other than being fired up for 20 mins and taking two chances well England offered fuck all. The two Mauls that ended up with a knock on were the only times they looked remotely threatening.
For the ABs i saw 30 mins of rubbish tactics of kicking everything. Worse still it was poorly executed. Crotty was clearly given a message to take out with him which was stop kicking the fucking thing away.
Nobody really played poorly IMO, kicking aside.
A Smith wasn't as bad as some have said. Poor kicking at times and the pass to Ardie. But Ardie should have caught that or not have been so flat.SBW also gets judge fucking harshly. I was expecting a shocker. He dropped one poor pass and dropped the high ball as he got a white shoulder in his back. There was also a nothing kick but that was clearly a team tactic given everyone was doing it. What exactly did people expect from him? His propensity to get injured half way through a game is a big problem. However that should count Crotty, Squire, Moody and Coles out too.
Crotty in particular showed he is still valuable after being written off on here lately.
Dmac was a bit of a mixed bag. Some good cleaning up and a few good runs but his ball security was poor and he was partly to blame for the first england try.
Anyway hopefully the weather isn't shit for the Ireland game.
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@taniwharugby I'm confused with where the offside line is tbh. My understanding is if it's a ruck, then the offside line is deemed to be at the hindmost point of your own player, but if it's a tackle then it has to be at the hindmost of any player involved. Not sure if this is a tackle or a ruck or whether it started of as a ruck and then became a tackle.
@akan004 said in England vs All Blacks:
@taniwharugby I'm confused with where the offside line is tbh. My understanding is if it's a ruck, then the offside line is deemed to be at the hindmost point of your own player, but if it's a tackle then it has to be at the hindmost of any player involved. Not sure if this is a tackle or a ruck or whether it started of as a ruck and then became a tackle.
One of the problems, at least from my armchair, is that the refs are giving a running commentary on the field - “hands off” “its a ruck” “back number 7”, motioning to players to get back on side etc etc.
I’m not against communication between ref and players and helping the game flow, but I think it’s gone too far and on for too long. So as experimental changes and trials have occurred, the refs are talking more - not less.
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@akan004 said in England vs All Blacks:
@taniwharugby I'm confused with where the offside line is tbh. My understanding is if it's a ruck, then the offside line is deemed to be at the hindmost point of your own player, but if it's a tackle then it has to be at the hindmost of any player involved. Not sure if this is a tackle or a ruck or whether it started of as a ruck and then became a tackle.
One of the problems, at least from my armchair, is that the refs are giving a running commentary on the field - “hands off” “its a ruck” “back number 7”, motioning to players to get back on side etc etc.
I’m not against communication between ref and players and helping the game flow, but I think it’s gone too far and on for too long. So as experimental changes and trials have occurred, the refs are talking more - not less.
@act-crusader said in England vs All Blacks:
I’m not against communication between ref and players and helping the game flow, but I think it’s gone too far and on for too long. So as experimental changes and trials have occurred, the refs are talking more - not less.
The last scrum of the match, a collapsed mess, and Garcess shouting at Underhill to stay bound and actually pushing him back to just a little bit less offside. Had me thinking "how did we get here?" Helicopter refs.
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My attempt. From the wide angle, as every thing I am seeing is from the deceptive close view, (and it still looks offside)
Deliberately chose yellow for the photo-shopped line ....
Even from a ruck 5m of the halfway line where the camera is positioned. Look at the difference in angles of the halfway line and the mown line. I have tracked the yellow line against the mower line
@rapido said in England vs All Blacks:
My attempt. From the wide angle, as every thing I am seeing is from the deceptive close view, (and it still looks offside)
Deliberately chose yellow for the photo-shopped line ....
Even from a ruck 5m of the halfway line where the camera is positioned. Look at the difference in angles of the halfway line and the mown line. I have tracked the yellow line against the mower line
I’d love to know the formulas you used to ensure angles, measurements and scale were accounted for when drawing that yellow line on that 2D image
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@rapido said in England vs All Blacks:
My attempt. From the wide angle, as every thing I am seeing is from the deceptive close view, (and it still looks offside)
Deliberately chose yellow for the photo-shopped line ....
Even from a ruck 5m of the halfway line where the camera is positioned. Look at the difference in angles of the halfway line and the mown line. I have tracked the yellow line against the mower line
I’d love to know the formulas you used to ensure angles, measurements and scale were accounted for when drawing that yellow line on that 2D image
@act-crusader said in England vs All Blacks:
@rapido said in England vs All Blacks:
My attempt. From the wide angle, as every thing I am seeing is from the deceptive close view, (and it still looks offside)
Deliberately chose yellow for the photo-shopped line ....
Even from a ruck 5m of the halfway line where the camera is positioned. Look at the difference in angles of the halfway line and the mown line. I have tracked the yellow line against the mower line
I’d love to know the formulas you used to ensure angles, measurements and scale were accounted for when drawing that yellow line on that 2D image
It's easy to do - draw numerous equally space perpendicular lines. Overlay and warp the corners so that they're pinned at the top (halfway line and 10m line crossing the touch line), adjust at other end so that the outside lines overlay the painted lines on the field.
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I haven't seen any link to GT12s write-up on the front page?
It's an interesting read.
https://www.thesilverfern.com/2018/11/11/phew-abs-escape-on-armistice-day/
Hopefully 'interesting' includes 'good' in some way
I had another rewatch of the first 20 odd minutes, and we really started poorly. We gave them possession in our half twice (BBBR drop, Taylor overthrow), and both times they scored points. On that first try, it looks to me like SBW makes the wrong read and goes back across field, leaving us short to cover the left side. No idea why he did that as it left Rieko lost covering two men.
We missed some luck - if Dmac could have held the Barrett bomb (one of his only contestable kicks in the half), it would have been 8-7 after 16 minutes. Sadly, he dropped it.
It's certainly true that our box kicks were poor, but during that first 20, almost all of the aimless kicks came from Barrett (SBW had one shocker). The missed penalty touch is also a bit unforgivable, given the state of the match. Other errors gave England the ball too - such as Ardie losing the ball in the tackle to Itoje, and I saw another bad line out - looked like a missed lift (by Franks or Read, I couldn't quite see who was meant to be jumping). With the scrum only holding its ground, I'd say that our set piece was actually another contributor to the poor start, and that's probably one reason why Taylor has got no MOTM votes - which is rare for him.
