England vs All Blacks
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Hopefully 'interesting' includes 'good' in some way
I had another rewatch of the first 20 odd minutes, and we really started poorly. We gave them possession in our half twice (BBBR drop, Taylor overthrow), and both times they scored points. On that first try, it looks to me like SBW makes the wrong read and goes back across field, leaving us short to cover the left side. No idea why he did that as it left Rieko lost covering two men.
We missed some luck - if Dmac could have held the Barrett bomb (one of his only contestable kicks in the half), it would have been 8-7 after 16 minutes. Sadly, he dropped it.
It's certainly true that our box kicks were poor, but during that first 20, almost all of the aimless kicks came from Barrett (SBW had one shocker). The missed penalty touch is also a bit unforgivable, given the state of the match. Other errors gave England the ball too - such as Ardie losing the ball in the tackle to Itoje, and I saw another bad line out - looked like a missed lift (by Franks or Read, I couldn't quite see who was meant to be jumping). With the scrum only holding its ground, I'd say that our set piece was actually another contributor to the poor start, and that's probably one reason why Taylor has got no MOTM votes - which is rare for him.
@gt12 said in England vs All Blacks:
On that first try, it looks to me like SBW makes the wrong read and goes back across field, leaving us short to cover the left side. No idea why he did that as it left Rieko lost covering two men.
That's a rather odd analysis. I tried to explain back in the thread what happened there as it was an example of very good pre-match analysis by Eddie (credit where it is due).
Reiko never came off his line out wide. He was always stationed about 20 metres in as per the defence pattern. DMac is meant to be the sweeper covering the outside channel (pretty standard stuff even in my day) and he would have done that job except that England moved the tackle/ruck gradually to the side until it reached the point of the defensive wrap where defenders change numbers on sides. I think from memory you will see BFA and SBW run to the other side and DMac starts to change his position to be closer to the other side as well. England time the recycle perfectly and catch DMac on the move in the wrong direction. By the time he reacts to the long pass he can't get to the ball carrier in front of the tryline.Those guys on the 1014 rugby highlighted this tipping point of the defence wrap as a potential weakness before the game.
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@gt12 said in England vs All Blacks:
On that first try, it looks to me like SBW makes the wrong read and goes back across field, leaving us short to cover the left side. No idea why he did that as it left Rieko lost covering two men.
That's a rather odd analysis. I tried to explain back in the thread what happened there as it was an example of very good pre-match analysis by Eddie (credit where it is due).
Reiko never came off his line out wide. He was always stationed about 20 metres in as per the defence pattern. DMac is meant to be the sweeper covering the outside channel (pretty standard stuff even in my day) and he would have done that job except that England moved the tackle/ruck gradually to the side until it reached the point of the defensive wrap where defenders change numbers on sides. I think from memory you will see BFA and SBW run to the other side and DMac starts to change his position to be closer to the other side as well. England time the recycle perfectly and catch DMac on the move in the wrong direction. By the time he reacts to the long pass he can't get to the ball carrier in front of the tryline.Those guys on the 1014 rugby highlighted this tipping point of the defence wrap as a potential weakness before the game.
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I've just finished watching the replay, and I'm happy to accept that it's taking advantage of our defensive pattern. Nevertheless, go watch it yourself and see SBW leave them there against 6 men.
@gt12 said in England vs All Blacks:
I've just finished watching the replay, and I'm happy to accept that it's taking advantage of your defensive pattern. Nevertheless, go watch it yourself and see SBW leave them there against 6 men.
I suppose what I am saying is that singling out only one player when they were all following the trained defensive pattern they are told to trust is a little unfair.
Just seen the latest 1014 post match and they reckon DMac was tracking Daly. Daly ran to the left putting DMac on the wrong foot to sweep to the right.
Edit: have rewatched and there was no reason that the backs (other than Goodhue and Reiko) wouldn't leave that side.
In fact you can see on the end on view BFA (I think) waving his hand calling the others to the wrong side.
You talk about 6 on 2 but it was a case of the tipping point for the wrap being triggered both positionally and by the England backs all running to the other side as well (10, 11,12, 13, 15) all ran left. For the backs it was 2 on 2 and the other 4 England players you mention were forwards directly behind the halfback (and ref) that were covered by our forwards close to the ruck)
AS covered the halfback, Goodhue covered channel 1 should the ball go out the back to Itoje and co on the wraparound, Reiko was covering the one forward in front of him and fully expected that DMac would be covering the tramlines should the ball get out there.
Until Daly moved DMac was actually behind and wider than Reiko, he was drawn 10 metres the wrong way then spun back when he saw that the halfback wasn't following the backs. It was a brilliant pass and DMac had been manipulated by Daly for enough time to create the huge space. -
Great game to watch, all in all if you take out the poor start it was a great 16 consecutive points from ABs in those conditions. I hate for anyone to get injured but I was so relieved to see Crotty come on. Thought mostly good performances especially in the pack. Mackenzie a bit of a mixed bag but I feel they have to stick with him as this is the best back 3 we have. I think Ofa has improved massively but can you really have him on the field in the last 10? He is a better starter than finisher but at the end of a game too much of a liability. Worried about A Smith, clearing was pretty good but kicking was dreadful. Can think of 4 or 5 test half backs who kick better than him. Also his butchering of a chance for Saves was awful, seems to make a lot of bad decisions in those types of situations. Even TJs slow motion box kick was a shocker though Lawes was clearly offside.
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@gt12 said in England vs All Blacks:
I've just finished watching the replay, and I'm happy to accept that it's taking advantage of your defensive pattern. Nevertheless, go watch it yourself and see SBW leave them there against 6 men.
I suppose what I am saying is that singling out only one player when they were all following the trained defensive pattern they are told to trust is a little unfair.
Just seen the latest 1014 post match and they reckon DMac was tracking Daly. Daly ran to the left putting DMac on the wrong foot to sweep to the right.
Edit: have rewatched and there was no reason that the backs (other than Goodhue and Reiko) wouldn't leave that side.
In fact you can see on the end on view BFA (I think) waving his hand calling the others to the wrong side.
You talk about 6 on 2 but it was a case of the tipping point for the wrap being triggered both positionally and by the England backs all running to the other side as well (10, 11,12, 13, 15) all ran left. For the backs it was 2 on 2 and the other 4 England players you mention were forwards directly behind the halfback (and ref) that were covered by our forwards close to the ruck)
AS covered the halfback, Goodhue covered channel 1 should the ball go out the back to Itoje and co on the wraparound, Reiko was covering the one forward in front of him and fully expected that DMac would be covering the tramlines should the ball get out there.
Until Daly moved DMac was actually behind and wider than Reiko, he was drawn 10 metres the wrong way then spun back when he saw that the halfback wasn't following the backs. It was a brilliant pass and DMac had been manipulated by Daly for enough time to create the huge space.@crucial said in England vs All Blacks:
@gt12 said in England vs All Blacks:
I've just finished watching the replay, and I'm happy to accept that it's taking advantage of your defensive pattern. Nevertheless, go watch it yourself and see SBW leave them there against 6 men.
I suppose what I am saying is that singling out only one player when they were all following the trained defensive pattern they are told to trust is a little unfair.
Just seen the latest 1014 post match and they reckon DMac was tracking Daly. Daly ran to the left putting DMac on the wrong foot to sweep to the right.
Edit: have rewatched and there was no reason that the backs (other than Goodhue and Reiko) wouldn't leave that side.
In fact you can see on the end on view BFA (I think) waving his hand calling the others to the wrong side.
You talk about 6 on 2 but it was a case of the tipping point for the wrap being triggered both positionally and by the England backs all running to the other side as well (10, 11,12, 13, 15) all ran left. For the backs it was 2 on 2 and the other 4 England players you mention were forwards directly behind the halfback (and ref) that were covered by our forwards close to the ruck)
AS covered the halfback, Goodhue covered channel 1 should the ball go out the back to Itoje and co on the wraparound, Reiko was covering the one forward in front of him and fully expected that DMac would be covering the tramlines should the ball get out there.
Until Daly moved DMac was actually behind and wider than Reiko, he was drawn 10 metres the wrong way then spun back when he saw that the halfback wasn't following the backs. It was a brilliant pass and DMac had been manipulated by Daly for enough time to create the huge space.I can see BFA with his hand in the ear, but it's supposition that he's waving them across - and if so, then he's to fault, because he has a man outside him and plenty of bodies to cover the space - too many men went, and SBW literally went from one side of the field to the other.
What I can see is both SBW and Dmac getting pulled across as Daly goes across, while England bring 3 runners behind the halfback from left to right, which holds Goodhue, while Rieko also stays put. Meanwhile, none of the forwards (including Whitelock as the pillar) have moved with those runners, and now I count 6 bodies (maybe 7) in motion with 5 ABs on the right - including Dmac coming in cover and Whitelock who's going nowhere. By this point of course, SBW had already taken off, and I think Goodhue also gets held by the bodies in motion as the England players slide over, while Rieko is now too narrow and there is too much space to cover.
What's interesting is the way they used a blitzkrieg style of having a number of players behind the ruck in motion moving to both sides, and found us out that easily.
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@gt12 so when England take all their backs bar one to the left are you saying that our backs shouldn't go there? Everything was well covered on England's right except for the space in the tramlines, which had been covered by DMac until a moment before the pass when he was dragged over for a moment by Daly.
I just don't get why you are trying to pin blame on SBW when, if he was still there, it would only be to push Reiko wider yet Reiko didn't need to be wider even though the defence was already set as per the pattern.
I give credit to England for manipulating us rather than looking to single out and blame one AB player.
If you watch what is being done by England it is a very planned and organised movement no doubt practised on the training ground. They all knew what they were doing and how we were likely to react. The pass to the outside came as no surprise to Ashton, he was hanging back waiting for it.Same as their second try where (watch the feet) the whole maul unit shuffled sideways, presumably on a call. They didn't drive at an angle infield, they actually moved sideways with intent. Again, well planned and executed.
I hate giving the poms and Eddie credit but find I have to in fairness rather than look to blame individual ABs. -
@stargazer said in England vs All Blacks:
Todd on for Savea.
Guy next to me said, 'Cue the perennial Kiwi battler'. great line!
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I dislike Itoje as a player! I reckon he is let away with so much at the breakdown, always putting hands in the ruck to slow it down, but I guess good on him, he gets away with it.
One of these ones where you could say ABs played shit and where luck but actually in reflection did pretty good. Hard place to win, pooring rain and down 15 after 20min Eng played as well as they could, but still stayed calm and tightened the screws. One thing you can guarantee this week and next is how hard teams will come out but absolutely shocking start from us.
England for me this was your chance and you blew it, too predictable and ABs adjusted and they didnt.@98blueandgold said in England vs All Blacks:
I dislike Itoje as a player! I reckon he is let away with so much at the breakdown, always putting hands in the ruck to slow it down, but I guess good on him, he gets away with it.
One could say that the oppo disliking a player is a compliment.
Remember how much it riled the Brits that Richie had a cloak of invisibility?
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@jc said in England vs All Blacks:
And Matt Todd retains his perfect record, never lost in black
If he keeps that up a cert for RWC final bench?!
@pakman said in England vs All Blacks:
@jc said in England vs All Blacks:
And Matt Todd retains his perfect record, never lost in black
If he keeps that up a cert for RWC final bench?!
Human victory cigar? (I know he's a little better than that)
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Dreadful defending by SBW in the run up to the Ashton try. Look 00:27 on the video below. He jogs over to the wrong side for no obvious reason, leaving Reiko Ioane to mark two guys.
@sparky said in England vs All Blacks:
Dreadful defending by SBW in the run up to the Ashton try. Look 00:27 on the video below. He jogs over to the wrong side for no obvious reason, leaving Reiko Ioane to mark two guys.
Did you read the posts about this before posting?
No obvious reason? Apart from the England backline all running to the other side?
We were manipulated. It wasn't one player making a poor decision.
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@sparky said in England vs All Blacks:
Dreadful defending by SBW in the run up to the Ashton try. Look 00:27 on the video below. He jogs over to the wrong side for no obvious reason, leaving Reiko Ioane to mark two guys.
Did you read the posts about this before posting?
No obvious reason? Apart from the England backline all running to the other side?
We were manipulated. It wasn't one player making a poor decision.
@crucial said in England vs All Blacks:
@sparky said in England vs All Blacks:
Dreadful defending by SBW in the run up to the Ashton try. Look 00:27 on the video below. He jogs over to the wrong side for no obvious reason, leaving Reiko Ioane to mark two guys.
Did you read the posts about this before posting?
No obvious reason? Apart from the England backline all running to the other side?
We were manipulated. It wasn't one player making a poor decision.
Yup. Let's not behave like England and Eddy Jones are total mugs. He has an earned reputation as a deep thinker and may have done us a favour identifying some weaknesses
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@sparky said in England vs All Blacks:
Dreadful defending by SBW in the run up to the Ashton try. Look 00:27 on the video below. He jogs over to the wrong side for no obvious reason, leaving Reiko Ioane to mark two guys.
Did you read the posts about this before posting?
No obvious reason? Apart from the England backline all running to the other side?
We were manipulated. It wasn't one player making a poor decision.
South Africa tried a similiar trick in Cape Town last year (from 2:02). But Sopoaga didn't fall for it. The ball ended up in Reiko's hands and he ran the length of the pitch for the try.
SBW left Reiko marking at least two guys on Saturday. He fell into Eddie Jones' trap.
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South Africa tried a similiar trick in Cape Town last year (from 2:02). But Sopoaga didn't fall for it. The ball ended up in Reiko's hands and he ran the length of the pitch for the try.
SBW left Reiko marking at least two guys on Saturday. He fell into Eddie Jones' trap.
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@sparky That's not the same.
@antipodean Similar not the same.
South Africa were operating in broken play after a number of phases. England's was of course a much slicker, pre-prepared team move in the first two minutes of the game. It was still poor defending by SBW to leave Reiko Ioane with a double-marking assignment.
But I guess the SBW fanboys won't see it that way. :winking_face:
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Nothing to do with fanboys. Just think posters are pulling you up on your point that’s all.
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@antipodean Similar not the same.
South Africa were operating in broken play after a number of phases. England's was of course a much slicker, pre-prepared team move in the first two minutes of the game. It was still poor defending by SBW to leave Reiko Ioane with a double-marking assignment.
But I guess the SBW fanboys won't see it that way. :winking_face:
@sparky said in England vs All Blacks:
@antipodean Similar not the same.
South Africa were operating in broken play after a number of phases. England's was of course a much slicker, pre-prepared team move in the first two minutes of the game. It was still poor defending by SBW to leave Reiko Ioane with a double-marking assignment.
But I guess the SBW fanboys won't see it that way. :winking_face:
South Africa were merely going around the corner. England manipulated the defence to make it look like they were going back openside - that's why two All Blacks hared over as part of their defensive pattern.
But I guess the SBW haters won't see it that way.
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@stargazer said in England vs All Blacks:
Amazing that there was a big article in today's Times (London) that offside adjudged when half touches ball. It stated that at that point Lawes was onside. Then Ofa steps forward (but articles says too late to matter). The above implies that so long as Ofa's foot outstretched before TJP picked up the ball Lawes was obliged to back-peddle, which he did not. In other words Ofa's step was decisive?
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RE: SBW
He seems to have lost any spark he had. In the past you could forgive the brain-fart tackles , the Hail-Mary passes or knocking the ball forward in-goal, as long as he was a threat in midfield, or if he had matured into a solid but savvy midfielder, like Crotty or Conrad. Sadly he's neither.
You get the sense Hansen is picking him in the hope he'll come right. There's actually a heck of a lot of depth at 12/13 - Crotty, ALB, Laumape, Goodhue - but there certainly ain't a settled combination which is worrying. Methinks Shag has to make his mind up soon.
