Has Hansen gone stale?
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Keeping powder dry? - I think there is a very small element of this. They have certainly been trialling different things for spells and taking note of what is effective and what isn't.
It is interesting that the coaches keep referring to players' getting to grips with a new style' but there has not been any evidence of a 'new style' at all. Just lots of different things for short spells.
I think there is also a case of seeing the plans these teams have against us. Where does Ireland go from here? They have found a way to win and will use it again. Now we just need to plot the way past that plan.
I don't think they have been too cute, just playing to the edge and hoping to pull through. When our best players all have a shit day at the same time then it is a given that this plan won't work.I have my fingers crossed that Hansen has taken these risks as part of a grand plan. The plan may not work, but I think he realises that continuing to play a style of feeding off turnovers only lasts so long and that by RWC it will be dead.
I will be interested to see what this eventual change will be. They have been periods where we have just bent the line one out and recycled but I don't think that is the real answer. Ireland showed how they could shut that down well.
We will still have an advantage of transition play that teams like Ireland and England don't have. It isn't instinctive in their bread and butter rugby and the players don't grow up doing it. Those hundredths of seconds deciding to make an unexpected pass or see an opportunity before it happens will still be a strength, we just can't rely on those turnovers against low risk taking teams.The reality in that game was that we had too many players out of form at once. Franks, Codie, BBBR, Read, AS, BB, Reiko. It was like someone had slipped them all a sedative. Was very unusual.
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Keeping powder dry? - I think there is a very small element of this. They have certainly been trialling different things for spells and taking note of what is effective and what isn't.
It is interesting that the coaches keep referring to players' getting to grips with a new style' but there has not been any evidence of a 'new style' at all. Just lots of different things for short spells.
I think there is also a case of seeing the plans these teams have against us. Where does Ireland go from here? They have found a way to win and will use it again. Now we just need to plot the way past that plan.
I don't think they have been too cute, just playing to the edge and hoping to pull through. When our best players all have a shit day at the same time then it is a given that this plan won't work.I have my fingers crossed that Hansen has taken these risks as part of a grand plan. The plan may not work, but I think he realises that continuing to play a style of feeding off turnovers only lasts so long and that by RWC it will be dead.
I will be interested to see what this eventual change will be. They have been periods where we have just bent the line one out and recycled but I don't think that is the real answer. Ireland showed how they could shut that down well.
We will still have an advantage of transition play that teams like Ireland and England don't have. It isn't instinctive in their bread and butter rugby and the players don't grow up doing it. Those hundredths of seconds deciding to make an unexpected pass or see an opportunity before it happens will still be a strength, we just can't rely on those turnovers against low risk taking teams.The reality in that game was that we had too many players out of form at once. Franks, Codie, BBBR, Read, AS, BB, Reiko. It was like someone had slipped them all a sedative. Was very unusual.
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@crucial not to mention missing Moody & Cane, 2 guys that do alot of defensive work, with the latter possibly being missed more than we realise despite Ardie playing the house down in his looser role.
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@taniwharugby You are almost always going to be missing some top players - weren't Ireland missing about 4 of their top side (similarly England the week prior)?
@kiwimurph not using them as an excuse, the Irish played bloody well and deserved to win, but these are things that contributed to how we played.
Who's to say had they had thier 'top players' playing things would have panned out the same and one of them may have had an off day...sliding doors and all.
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Keeping powder dry? - I think there is a very small element of this. They have certainly been trialling different things for spells and taking note of what is effective and what isn't.
It is interesting that the coaches keep referring to players' getting to grips with a new style' but there has not been any evidence of a 'new style' at all. Just lots of different things for short spells.
I think there is also a case of seeing the plans these teams have against us. Where does Ireland go from here? They have found a way to win and will use it again. Now we just need to plot the way past that plan.
I don't think they have been too cute, just playing to the edge and hoping to pull through. When our best players all have a shit day at the same time then it is a given that this plan won't work.I have my fingers crossed that Hansen has taken these risks as part of a grand plan. The plan may not work, but I think he realises that continuing to play a style of feeding off turnovers only lasts so long and that by RWC it will be dead.
I will be interested to see what this eventual change will be. They have been periods where we have just bent the line one out and recycled but I don't think that is the real answer. Ireland showed how they could shut that down well.
We will still have an advantage of transition play that teams like Ireland and England don't have. It isn't instinctive in their bread and butter rugby and the players don't grow up doing it. Those hundredths of seconds deciding to make an unexpected pass or see an opportunity before it happens will still be a strength, we just can't rely on those turnovers against low risk taking teams.The reality in that game was that we had too many players out of form at once. Franks, Codie, BBBR, Read, AS, BB, Reiko. It was like someone had slipped them all a sedative. Was very unusual.
@crucial said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
The reality in that game was that we had too many players out of form at once. Franks, Codie, BBBR, Read, AS, BB, Reiko.
How on earth did Reiko make that list? He was a threat every time he got the ball, which was usually in traffic, and he just didn't get the ball often.
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If not for injuries, NMS and SBW are still in the squad despite form. This is just the start of the selection issues though.
I'm not sure being a very good scrummager is enough to be a starting prop when you don't bring much else around the field (Franks and Karl T). Not a rhetorical question either, they might be key to success despite their deficiencies.
Whitelock is clearly on tired legs but will hopefully be well rested between now and the RWC.
Squire has never reached the required level in my mind, worth looking at Hemopo/Papalii/AN other.
Read is clearly affected by injuries and/or time but like Whitelock, is going to be in the starting side regardless. Not the wrong call as his experience is invaluable but he doesn't have the cool head of McCaw in captaincy nor is he the player he once was.
Perenara may overtake Smith unless he can recapture the form he had when he first became our 9.
Beauden is likely still our 10 but tactically something has to change.
I'm unsure of the best midfield but SBW isn't in it. Would be great if Nonu still has his spark but at his age it us unlikely.
Not to point a finger at DMac as he has done OK but I think BFA goes back to FB.
And cut the mullets boys.
@mofitzy_ said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
I'm unsure of the best midfield but SBW isn't in it.
I really can't recall a best midfield with SBW in it.
He was no.2 to Nonu and for the last 3 years his brain-farts outnumber his magic off-loads by about 3 to 1 - well, when he's not injured.
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The keeping the powder dry argument is a crock. You can hold back certain plays without the team looking like a bunch of muppets who have never met each other before. I'm really troubled how a bunch of senior players could all collectively play so bloody badly. One guy having an off day, it happens. Two yeah, ok. But we had five or six. Considering a massive squad was sent away to counteract the fatigue issue, it was alarming to see so many players ambling about. Fitness has always been our thing.
I dunno. Maybe there has been too much experimentation. Especially with the backline and the constantly rotating midfield/first five who really wants to be a fullback/out of sorts starting halfback. We just really seem out of balance, not creating space, not bashing it up, not retaining possession.
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@mofitzy_ said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
I'm unsure of the best midfield but SBW isn't in it.
I really can't recall a best midfield with SBW in it.
He was no.2 to Nonu and for the last 3 years his brain-farts outnumber his magic off-loads by about 3 to 1 - well, when he's not injured.
@victor-meldrew said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
@mofitzy_ said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
I'm unsure of the best midfield but SBW isn't in it.
I really can't recall a best midfield with SBW in it.
He was no.2 to Nonu and for the last 3 years his brain-farts outnumber his magic off-loads by about 3 to 1 - well. when he's not injured.
For me the defining test of his career is the second test against the Lions.
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@victor-meldrew said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
@mofitzy_ said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
I'm unsure of the best midfield but SBW isn't in it.
I really can't recall a best midfield with SBW in it.
He was no.2 to Nonu and for the last 3 years his brain-farts outnumber his magic off-loads by about 3 to 1 - well. when he's not injured.
For me the defining test of his career is the second test against the Lions.
@no-quarter I think we were looking very sharp with the SBW/Crotty mid-field for the Lions, until Crotty got injured and next test SBW got sent off.
We were making big in roads into the rush defence then, so maybe this is why Hansen is so persistent with SBW as he feels he is the key to unlocking it? Shame his body is probably about 2 years too late for that.
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I am now at the anger stage. If we have a pattern of play that beats Ireland on the weekend, and deliberately didn't do it enough to win the game, then i am fucking furious. If it was shelved to keep it up our sleeves for next year then i am apoplectic.
That's why I have decided it's bullshit. No coach is that arrogant that they can just ignore the central part of his job, winning tests, for the goal of winning more tests next year. And if he is allowed to with the backing of the NZRU, then i want everyone involved in that process fired.
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I am now at the anger stage. If we have a pattern of play that beats Ireland on the weekend, and deliberately didn't do it enough to win the game, then i am fucking furious. If it was shelved to keep it up our sleeves for next year then i am apoplectic.
That's why I have decided it's bullshit. No coach is that arrogant that they can just ignore the central part of his job, winning tests, for the goal of winning more tests next year. And if he is allowed to with the backing of the NZRU, then i want everyone involved in that process fired.
@mariner4life what if the powder dry 'alley' is in that we had stuff we were trying to achieve in order to unleash these masterful moves that would wow the world, but cos our kicking was shite and we coudlnt catch, we were unable to get ourselves in a position to unleash/try this magical moves?
We just coudnt execute whatever ever it was they were trying to do, so whethe ror not we had extras up our sleeve, we lost.
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@mariner4life what if the powder dry 'alley' is in that we had stuff we were trying to achieve in order to unleash these masterful moves that would wow the world, but cos our kicking was shite and we coudlnt catch, we were unable to get ourselves in a position to unleash/try this magical moves?
We just coudnt execute whatever ever it was they were trying to do, so whethe ror not we had extras up our sleeve, we lost.
@taniwharugby said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
@mariner4life what if the powder dry 'alley' is in that we had stuff we were trying to achieve in order to unleash these masterful moves that would wow the world, but cos our kicking was shite and we coudlnt catch, we were unable to get ourselves in a position to unleash/try this magical moves?
When you guys are talking about the "powder" you aren't talking about moves are you? If you are, then we are talking about different shit.
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I am now at the anger stage. If we have a pattern of play that beats Ireland on the weekend, and deliberately didn't do it enough to win the game, then i am fucking furious. If it was shelved to keep it up our sleeves for next year then i am apoplectic.
That's why I have decided it's bullshit. No coach is that arrogant that they can just ignore the central part of his job, winning tests, for the goal of winning more tests next year. And if he is allowed to with the backing of the NZRU, then i want everyone involved in that process fired.
@mariner4life I think that we have a current game plan that can beat Ireland and we played that on the weekend. However, due to poor execution and general dipshit-ness we didn't execute it well and we lost. I still think they're working on a game plan to win the RWC (that isn't Ireland specific but all comers specific) and that is what Hansen is talking about.
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@mariner4life I think that we have a current game plan that can beat Ireland and we played that on the weekend. However, due to poor execution and general dipshit-ness we didn't execute it well and we lost. I still think they're working on a game plan to win the RWC (that isn't Ireland specific but all comers specific) and that is what Hansen is talking about.
@nepia said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
@mariner4life I think that we have a current game plan that can beat Ireland and we played that on the weekend. However, due to poor execution and general dipshit-ness we didn't execute it well and we lost. I still think they're working on a game plan to win the RWC (that isn't Ireland specific but all comers specific) and that is what Hansen is talking about.
see, i don't see it that way. We didn't look like the better team on the weekend, so i don't see it as "a plan to beat Ireland". It couldn't beat the Lions who used much the same tactics, and it didn't win on the weekend. We had maybe 10 minutes in the ascendency on the weekend, and got nothing for it because key players panicked or made errors under pressure. So if the plan is "hope those same guys don't fuck it up next time like they have the last two" that doesn't fill me with confidence.
The keys to beating the ABs have been the same for how many years now? Heat on the rucks; rush on defense to take away time; make your tackles; cut out the aimless kicks. It's still the key now. How is that possible?
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@nepia said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
@mariner4life I think that we have a current game plan that can beat Ireland and we played that on the weekend. However, due to poor execution and general dipshit-ness we didn't execute it well and we lost. I still think they're working on a game plan to win the RWC (that isn't Ireland specific but all comers specific) and that is what Hansen is talking about.
see, i don't see it that way. We didn't look like the better team on the weekend, so i don't see it as "a plan to beat Ireland". It couldn't beat the Lions who used much the same tactics, and it didn't win on the weekend. We had maybe 10 minutes in the ascendency on the weekend, and got nothing for it because key players panicked or made errors under pressure. So if the plan is "hope those same guys don't fuck it up next time like they have the last two" that doesn't fill me with confidence.
The keys to beating the ABs have been the same for how many years now? Heat on the rucks; rush on defense to take away time; make your tackles; cut out the aimless kicks. It's still the key now. How is that possible?
@mariner4life Fair enough, I lean more towards we're good enough but we're fucking up (the Lions series is a bit of a french red herring for me). The other option is we're just getting beaten by better teams, if that's the case then I'll have to join team ...
... which I've been resisting so far.
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@nepia said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
@mariner4life I think that we have a current game plan that can beat Ireland and we played that on the weekend. However, due to poor execution and general dipshit-ness we didn't execute it well and we lost. I still think they're working on a game plan to win the RWC (that isn't Ireland specific but all comers specific) and that is what Hansen is talking about.
see, i don't see it that way. We didn't look like the better team on the weekend, so i don't see it as "a plan to beat Ireland". It couldn't beat the Lions who used much the same tactics, and it didn't win on the weekend. We had maybe 10 minutes in the ascendency on the weekend, and got nothing for it because key players panicked or made errors under pressure. So if the plan is "hope those same guys don't fuck it up next time like they have the last two" that doesn't fill me with confidence.
The keys to beating the ABs have been the same for how many years now? Heat on the rucks; rush on defense to take away time; make your tackles; cut out the aimless kicks. It's still the key now. How is that possible?
@mariner4life totally dominated for 70 mins and still only lost by 7?
I share some of your views too, and wonder if Hansen has reached the end of the line a year or so too early, but I do honestly think we were a bit of luck and better execution of some basics and beating the Irish, question is would this have simply papered over cracks or given the boost we needed for this slightly different game plan?
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@mariner4life Fair enough, I lean more towards we're good enough but we're fucking up (the Lions series is a bit of a french red herring for me). The other option is we're just getting beaten by better teams, if that's the case then I'll have to join team ...
... which I've been resisting so far.
@nepia don't throw that shit in here, the sky is not falling, it's not doom and gloom, we are still #1, and just lost a tight one to the #2 side away.
My point is, the result is secondary to what i have seen on the field this year. There are concerns all over our park, with a whole heap of unanswered questions. If the Irish test was the only blip on the year you could probably make a few claims around tired/luck/off day.
But when you add it to last weeks performance, the loss to the Boks in Wellington, the first 50 minutes to the Boks away, and yes, even the Lions, then there should be at least a few alarm bells. That's a decent amount of evidence that things aren't going perfect, yet i see very little evidence of any changes in thinking.
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I don't think anyone has been keeping the powder dry - that's straw clutching.
I do think Ireland are a bloody good side with a number of players that are currently the best in their position, brimming with confidence and extremely well coached.
I also believe that this was one tough game too far for a lot of the players - not just physically but mentally.
We are also nowhere near as dominant now as we were during the last WC cycle - results notwithstanding. This side simply isn't as good as the 2015 one.
There are also some critical form issues that have been obvious for quite some time.
EOYT for both hemispheres are far from a level playing field. The only time you truly get a measure of how everyone stacks up is at a RWC.
We do look stale but I think that is down to all the factors above more than our form falling off a cliff as it did in 90/91.
Ireland are a bloody good side and did to us what we normally do to others. Still both sides were out on their feet and we could have stolen a thoroughly undeserved victory. I don't think the likes of BBBR will play as poorly again so plenty to work on but I'm firmly in the glass half full camp.
Plus the Black Caps won overnight so it would be churlish to be too negative
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@nepia don't throw that shit in here, the sky is not falling, it's not doom and gloom, we are still #1, and just lost a tight one to the #2 side away.
My point is, the result is secondary to what i have seen on the field this year. There are concerns all over our park, with a whole heap of unanswered questions. If the Irish test was the only blip on the year you could probably make a few claims around tired/luck/off day.
But when you add it to last weeks performance, the loss to the Boks in Wellington, the first 50 minutes to the Boks away, and yes, even the Lions, then there should be at least a few alarm bells. That's a decent amount of evidence that things aren't going perfect, yet i see very little evidence of any changes in thinking.
@mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
That's a decent amount of evidence that things aren't going perfect, yet i see very little evidence of any changes in thinking.
Due to his record, I'm willing to give Hansen enough rope and believe his comments to think that 'changes in thinking' may actually be contributing to this years results.
I'll be there waiting with the rope if it all goes pear shaped next year though.
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@nepia don't throw that shit in here, the sky is not falling, it's not doom and gloom, we are still #1, and just lost a tight one to the #2 side away.
My point is, the result is secondary to what i have seen on the field this year. There are concerns all over our park, with a whole heap of unanswered questions. If the Irish test was the only blip on the year you could probably make a few claims around tired/luck/off day.
But when you add it to last weeks performance, the loss to the Boks in Wellington, the first 50 minutes to the Boks away, and yes, even the Lions, then there should be at least a few alarm bells. That's a decent amount of evidence that things aren't going perfect, yet i see very little evidence of any changes in thinking.
@mariner4life said in Has Hansen gone stale?:
@nepia don't throw that shit in here, the sky is not falling, it's not doom and gloom, we are still #1, and just lost a tight one to the #2 side away.
I don't think that (yet), but some of the comments on various threads since the game suggest others do.
