The Semenya Rule
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@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
This is a really good read https://quillette.com/2019/05/03/a-victory-for-female-athletes-everywhere/
Outstanding article. This part drives home the point:
Without an eligibility rule based in sex-linked traits, we wouldn’t see female bodies on any podium. Equally important, without such an eligibility rule, it’s unlikely that societies could continue legally to sustain separate girls and women’s only sport. The set-aside is premised on inherent biological differences between the sexes. If that basis were eliminated, it’s unclear how the classification would pass muster under standard legal anti-discrimination analysis
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
Without an eligibility rule based in sex-linked traits, we wouldn’t see female bodies on any podium.
I don't really have a strong opinion either way on this - but this isn't a particularly compelling argument. A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
Without an eligibility rule based in sex-linked traits, we wouldn’t see female bodies on any podium.
I don't really have a strong opinion either way on this - but this isn't a particularly compelling argument. A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
Without an eligibility rule based in sex-linked traits, we wouldn’t see female bodies on any podium.
I don't really have a strong opinion either way on this - but this isn't a particularly compelling argument. A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
You missed the other part in the article where she addresses this very point. We celebrate variations inside the sexes (height, speed, etc) that help performance.
And in these variations you can get an Asian or Caucasian successful sprinter, although rarely.
The difference between the sexes is you would get no woman at all having success. In fact they would struggle against boys. They took one year of results (2017) and compared it against lifetime bests for Olympic champions. Tens of thousands of men and boy results in one year that obliterated their PBs.
Allowing men levels of T in the woman’s category means the end of woman’s sport.
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This is more about the two troons that won the state champs than Semenya.
https://unherd.com/2019/03/trans-athletes-make-a-mockery-of-womens-sports/
Disclaimer, the author is a feminist who was permanently banned from twitter for saying "men aren't women".
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@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
This is a really good read https://quillette.com/2019/05/03/a-victory-for-female-athletes-everywhere/
Outstanding article. This part drives home the point:
Without an eligibility rule based in sex-linked traits, we wouldn’t see female bodies on any podium. Equally important, without such an eligibility rule, it’s unlikely that societies could continue legally to sustain separate girls and women’s only sport. The set-aside is premised on inherent biological differences between the sexes. If that basis were eliminated, it’s unclear how the classification would pass muster under standard legal anti-discrimination analysis
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
Without an eligibility rule based in sex-linked traits, we wouldn’t see female bodies on any podium.
And this is also wehre some people get wound up. THere has to be a line somewhere - but where do you draw it? The problem with protected classes of sport is that you always have people wanting to come in and dominate.
This has some strong parallels with age-based restrictions. Shahid Afridi finally copped to not actually being 16, but 19 when he played ODI for the first time. That's at least open - but imagine being a 16 year old facing a 19 year old cricketer. IT's not a level playing field. I think this is what a number of female athletes face.
Finally, the 'fix' appears to be as simple as taking a birth control pill for most people (according to the article). If taking birth control destroys your ability to compete, I think the line is probably in the right place.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
Without an eligibility rule based in sex-linked traits, we wouldn’t see female bodies on any podium.
I don't really have a strong opinion either way on this - but this isn't a particularly compelling argument. A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
In the 100 m final at the 2013 World Championships in Moscow, Christophe Lemaitre finished in seventh place in a time of 10.06. (And he won a bronze medal in the 200m at Rio, so you've seen a white sprinter on the podium.)
And Alan Wells back in 1980 would have been in the fastest 8.
But it has been a long drought between those two.
In the meantime, the number of top end black swimmers is equally low.
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@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
In the 100 m final at the 2013 World Championships in Moscow, Christophe Lemaitre finished in seventh place in a time of 10.06. (And he won a bronze medal in the 200m at Rio, so you've seen a white sprinter on the podium.)
And Alan Wells back in 1980 would have been in the fastest 8.
But it has been a long drought between those two.
In the meantime, the number of top end black swimmers is equally low.
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This is a really good read https://quillette.com/2019/05/03/a-victory-for-female-athletes-everywhere/
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
This is a really good read https://quillette.com/2019/05/03/a-victory-for-female-athletes-everywhere/
Excellent read.
Interesting to note the medallists behind Semenya were both also confirmed or likely DSD. So it appears it's not just the Semenya rule.
Was pondering this whole point further.
The upshot is you have two categories of athlete based on sex. But you have to define where that sits on the gender spectrum.
The split is either:
- men and non-men, or
- women and non-women (women and open)
To my mind the latter is the fairest.
Then you have to define where the line is (could ask the Aussie cricketers ... ?). You set some objective definitions that can be measured.
Pass and you can compete in the restricted category..
Probably a repeat of a number of points above, but just trying to put some words together to define it.
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@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
In the 100 m final at the 2013 World Championships in Moscow, Christophe Lemaitre finished in seventh place in a time of 10.06. (And he won a bronze medal in the 200m at Rio, so you've seen a white sprinter on the podium.)
And Alan Wells back in 1980 would have been in the fastest 8.
But it has been a long drought between those two.
In the meantime, the number of top end black swimmers is equally low.
@Chester-Draws said in The Semenya Rule:
@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
In the 100 m final at the 2013 World Championships in Moscow, Christophe Lemaitre finished in seventh place in a time of 10.06. (And he won a bronze medal in the 200m at Rio, so you've seen a white sprinter on the podium.)
And Alan Wells back in 1980 would have been in the fastest 8.
But it has been a long drought between those two.
In the meantime, the number of top end black swimmers is equally low.
Alan Wells won gold in 1980.
Admittedly sans Yanks.
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Yet to read the article @jegga linked but this is the best I've read on Semenya. The reporting on this has been absolutely terrible.
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This is the counter argument. It’s not very strong
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Yet to read the article @jegga linked but this is the best I've read on Semenya. The reporting on this has been absolutely terrible.
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Best article I've read on it.
Changed my mind.
Still feel very sorry for Semenya though.
@gt12 said in The Semenya Rule:
Best article I've read on it.
Changed my mind.
Still feel very sorry for Semenya though.
Yep . It’s a very shitty situation for her. No fucks to give for the South Africans who screamed racism when her issue was made public , their behaviour was reprehensible .
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@jegga to be fair, that isn’t far off my opinion stated way above - all top tier athletes are freaks, in their own way.
It’s the race card plays that drive me nuts. White people cant handle a black person winning etc ... cos she’s like first black person ever to dominate in athletics ...
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@jegga to be fair, that isn’t far off my opinion stated way above - all top tier athletes are freaks, in their own way.
It’s the race card plays that drive me nuts. White people cant handle a black person winning etc ... cos she’s like first black person ever to dominate in athletics ...
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga to be fair, that isn’t far off my opinion stated way above - all top tier athletes are freaks, in their own way.
It’s the race card plays that drive me nuts. White people cant handle a black person winning etc ... cos she’s like first black person ever to dominate in athletics ...
Well, being a man is a huge advantage in sports. Nobody disagrees with that.
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@jegga to be fair, that isn’t far off my opinion stated way above - all top tier athletes are freaks, in their own way.
It’s the race card plays that drive me nuts. White people cant handle a black person winning etc ... cos she’s like first black person ever to dominate in athletics ...
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga to be fair, that isn’t far off my opinion stated way above - all top tier athletes are freaks, in their own way.
It’s the race card plays that drive me nuts. White people cant handle a black person winning etc ... cos she’s like first black person ever to dominate in athletics ...
She has Xy chromosomes, internal testes and no ovaries or womb, that’s a long way off Phelps . That’s not close to being a fair comparison.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga to be fair, that isn’t far off my opinion stated way above - all top tier athletes are freaks, in their own way.
It’s the race card plays that drive me nuts. White people cant handle a black person winning etc ... cos she’s like first black person ever to dominate in athletics ...
She has Xy chromosomes, internal testes and no ovaries or womb, that’s a long way off Phelps . That’s not close to being a fair comparison.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga fair, but where do you draw the line?
Testosterone levels seems fair, like they have agreed here. Competitors shouldn't be able to have 10 to 30 times the level that a woman can produce. Same reason we don't allow doping.
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Fair enough, can see how you form your view.
Me, however, as a staunch critic of gender politics, I have to be consistent. In my view You are either physically a bloke or a woman. She’s a woman so I think it’s fine to let her race.
