The Semenya Rule
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Semenya Rule:
Without an eligibility rule based in sex-linked traits, we wouldn’t see female bodies on any podium.
I don't really have a strong opinion either way on this - but this isn't a particularly compelling argument. A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
In the 100 m final at the 2013 World Championships in Moscow, Christophe Lemaitre finished in seventh place in a time of 10.06. (And he won a bronze medal in the 200m at Rio, so you've seen a white sprinter on the podium.)
And Alan Wells back in 1980 would have been in the fastest 8.
But it has been a long drought between those two.
In the meantime, the number of top end black swimmers is equally low.
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@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
In the 100 m final at the 2013 World Championships in Moscow, Christophe Lemaitre finished in seventh place in a time of 10.06. (And he won a bronze medal in the 200m at Rio, so you've seen a white sprinter on the podium.)
And Alan Wells back in 1980 would have been in the fastest 8.
But it has been a long drought between those two.
In the meantime, the number of top end black swimmers is equally low.
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This is a really good read https://quillette.com/2019/05/03/a-victory-for-female-athletes-everywhere/
@jegga said in The Semenya Rule:
This is a really good read https://quillette.com/2019/05/03/a-victory-for-female-athletes-everywhere/
Excellent read.
Interesting to note the medallists behind Semenya were both also confirmed or likely DSD. So it appears it's not just the Semenya rule.
Was pondering this whole point further.
The upshot is you have two categories of athlete based on sex. But you have to define where that sits on the gender spectrum.
The split is either:
- men and non-men, or
- women and non-women (women and open)
To my mind the latter is the fairest.
Then you have to define where the line is (could ask the Aussie cricketers ... ?). You set some objective definitions that can be measured.
Pass and you can compete in the restricted category..
Probably a repeat of a number of points above, but just trying to put some words together to define it.
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@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
In the 100 m final at the 2013 World Championships in Moscow, Christophe Lemaitre finished in seventh place in a time of 10.06. (And he won a bronze medal in the 200m at Rio, so you've seen a white sprinter on the podium.)
And Alan Wells back in 1980 would have been in the fastest 8.
But it has been a long drought between those two.
In the meantime, the number of top end black swimmers is equally low.
@Chester-Draws said in The Semenya Rule:
@rotated said in The Semenya Rule:
A Caucasian (or asian) man hasn't been in the 100m final in my lifetime let alone the podium. I wouldn't advocate to somehow level the playing field to see that happen.
In the 100 m final at the 2013 World Championships in Moscow, Christophe Lemaitre finished in seventh place in a time of 10.06. (And he won a bronze medal in the 200m at Rio, so you've seen a white sprinter on the podium.)
And Alan Wells back in 1980 would have been in the fastest 8.
But it has been a long drought between those two.
In the meantime, the number of top end black swimmers is equally low.
Alan Wells won gold in 1980.
Admittedly sans Yanks.
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Yet to read the article @jegga linked but this is the best I've read on Semenya. The reporting on this has been absolutely terrible.
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This is the counter argument. It’s not very strong
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Yet to read the article @jegga linked but this is the best I've read on Semenya. The reporting on this has been absolutely terrible.
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Best article I've read on it.
Changed my mind.
Still feel very sorry for Semenya though.
@gt12 said in The Semenya Rule:
Best article I've read on it.
Changed my mind.
Still feel very sorry for Semenya though.
Yep . It’s a very shitty situation for her. No fucks to give for the South Africans who screamed racism when her issue was made public , their behaviour was reprehensible .
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@jegga to be fair, that isn’t far off my opinion stated way above - all top tier athletes are freaks, in their own way.
It’s the race card plays that drive me nuts. White people cant handle a black person winning etc ... cos she’s like first black person ever to dominate in athletics ...
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@jegga to be fair, that isn’t far off my opinion stated way above - all top tier athletes are freaks, in their own way.
It’s the race card plays that drive me nuts. White people cant handle a black person winning etc ... cos she’s like first black person ever to dominate in athletics ...
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga to be fair, that isn’t far off my opinion stated way above - all top tier athletes are freaks, in their own way.
It’s the race card plays that drive me nuts. White people cant handle a black person winning etc ... cos she’s like first black person ever to dominate in athletics ...
Well, being a man is a huge advantage in sports. Nobody disagrees with that.
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@jegga to be fair, that isn’t far off my opinion stated way above - all top tier athletes are freaks, in their own way.
It’s the race card plays that drive me nuts. White people cant handle a black person winning etc ... cos she’s like first black person ever to dominate in athletics ...
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga to be fair, that isn’t far off my opinion stated way above - all top tier athletes are freaks, in their own way.
It’s the race card plays that drive me nuts. White people cant handle a black person winning etc ... cos she’s like first black person ever to dominate in athletics ...
She has Xy chromosomes, internal testes and no ovaries or womb, that’s a long way off Phelps . That’s not close to being a fair comparison.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga to be fair, that isn’t far off my opinion stated way above - all top tier athletes are freaks, in their own way.
It’s the race card plays that drive me nuts. White people cant handle a black person winning etc ... cos she’s like first black person ever to dominate in athletics ...
She has Xy chromosomes, internal testes and no ovaries or womb, that’s a long way off Phelps . That’s not close to being a fair comparison.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga fair, but where do you draw the line?
Testosterone levels seems fair, like they have agreed here. Competitors shouldn't be able to have 10 to 30 times the level that a woman can produce. Same reason we don't allow doping.
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Fair enough, can see how you form your view.
Me, however, as a staunch critic of gender politics, I have to be consistent. In my view You are either physically a bloke or a woman. She’s a woman so I think it’s fine to let her race.
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Fair enough, can see how you form your view.
Me, however, as a staunch critic of gender politics, I have to be consistent. In my view You are either physically a bloke or a woman. She’s a woman so I think it’s fine to let her race.
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
Fair enough, can see how you form your view.
Me, however, as a staunch critic of gender politics, I have to be consistent. In my view You are either physically a bloke or a woman. She’s a woman so I think it’s fine to let her race.
If she was a Troon I’d agree but there has to be a bit of nuance here I reckon , it’s interesting that’s she’s not the only runner that’s intersex but she’s the one getting all the attention.
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Fair enough, can see how you form your view.
Me, however, as a staunch critic of gender politics, I have to be consistent. In my view You are either physically a bloke or a woman. She’s a woman so I think it’s fine to let her race.
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
Fair enough, can see how you form your view.
Me, however, as a staunch critic of gender politics, I have to be consistent. In my view You are either physically a bloke or a woman. She’s a woman so I think it’s fine to let her race.
I'm a staunch critic as well, but there are biologically a few grey areas where people get mixed genetics. Some people have both sets of genitals for example.
That's different from dying your hair blue and being Owlkin.
Nobody is saying people that are affected like this can't live as a woman, but when they get male genetics that generate T that has to exclude them from competing in womans sporting events.
It has such a huge impact on performance it basically means that you either have to allow all woman to take testosterone to compete (and raise the risk of many cancers, among other health effects) or accept that woman's sport is finished as a category.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@jegga fair, but where do you draw the line?
Well the IAAF have drawn a line.
Woman this side, Open that side.
The line is still massively in favour of those with high naturally occurring testosterone.
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Need to track it down and do more reading but a researcher in the US has indicated that the impact of testosterone is being overstated around physical performance. Heard a brief snippet on RS but can't recall her name. I wonder if that is in anyway related to the all the work going on around PED detection and research? Surely that is full of edge cases where you do run into people with (natural) physiology outside the norm.
I agree that it's shit she'll have to take something to alter her levels, given that's her natural state. But also think there is a need to have these conversations - and that it'll only get more relevant and topical.
