2019 under 20's
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was at a Q&A session with fozzie last night.. he was asked if he was concerned about the u20 performance.
His response was that unlike other countries they treat u20's as 'developmental' vs 'high performance'. By which he meant that it's not that they don't want to win it but they want to have a wide group of players to develop and don't dedicate the time to it other countries do. but he defo had some concerns about the result.
he said he spent 3 days with the coaching staff in the lead up to the spanking from Aus.. he said after that loss Mike Kron rang him up and said 'thank fcuk you didn't spend 5 days with them!'
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was at a Q&A session with fozzie last night.. he was asked if he was concerned about the u20 performance.
His response was that unlike other countries they treat u20's as 'developmental' vs 'high performance'. By which he meant that it's not that they don't want to win it but they want to have a wide group of players to develop and don't dedicate the time to it other countries do. but he defo had some concerns about the result.
he said he spent 3 days with the coaching staff in the lead up to the spanking from Aus.. he said after that loss Mike Kron rang him up and said 'thank fcuk you didn't spend 5 days with them!'
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You can find the decision in the Finau case here (it downloads a pdf file): https://pulse-static-files.s3.amazonaws.com/worldrugby/document/2019/06/20/63eb654e-9909-452d-aba0-8300b2cad88f/WR-Judicial-Hearing-Decision-Samipeni-Finau-190620.pdf
Here's the bit about which games have been taken into account for his suspension"
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Geez, four weeks suspension! I know I predicted this in case the citing was upheld, but I really think it's excessive in this case.
The decision isn't available on the WR website yet, but this is the summary:
Samipeni Finau (New Zealand) New Zealand reserve Samipeni Finau appeared at a hearing before an independent World Rugby Disciplinary Committee chaired by Wang Shao Ing (Singapore) along with John Langford (former Australia player) and Sarah Smith (former Scotland player) in Rosario on 19 June, 2019 having been cited by Citing Commissioner Eugene Ryan (Ireland) for striking Wales full-back Ioan Davies with the shoulder/high tackle in breach of Law 9.13 in their match at the World Rugby U20 Championship in Rosario, Argentina, on 17 June, 2019. The Disciplinary Committee received evidence from Finau, Davies, the Wales team doctor and the referee as well as submissions on behalf of the player. The Disciplinary Committee considered that this was a high tackle which contacted Davies’ head and upheld the citing. They considered this a mid-range breach of Law 9.13 which carries a six-week entry point. The Disciplinary Committee considered the player’s previously clean record, youth and inexperience to reduce the sanction by two weeks to four weeks. Finau is suspended from Saturday’s final round at the World Rugby U20 Championship until after his club’s semi-final game in Waikato on 13 July or, if his club do not qualify for the finals, Waikato’s first Mitre 10 Cup pre-season game on 26 July, 2019.@Stargazer said in 2019 under 20's:
Geez, four weeks suspension! I know I predicted this in case the citing was upheld, but I really think it's excessive in this case.
Hell, that's tough. I struggle where both players are dropping - if Finau was 6 inches lower it would have been a well time smashing. To start at 6 weeks for that is tough.
Ah well, modern rugby. I think you're going to see a lot of head first runners in the RWC; we shoudl lead the way in bending the rules to win. Lots of bent over running, drive a shedload of mauls from everywhere, and contest loads of high balls. The only way to force rule changes is to make them appear farcical by gaming them
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@WillieTheWaiter Fozzie's time would have been better spent with the players they want to develop. The coaching staff is their biggest problem.
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@Stargazer Or Stay away completely I am not convinced of Fosters Coaching ability.
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NZ U20s team to play Ireland for 7th place:
1 Oliver Norris
2 Shilo Klein
3 Fletcher Newell
4 Cullen Grace
5 Tupo Vaa'i
6 Kaylum Boshier (C)
7 Jeriah Mua
8 Simon Parker
9 Taufa Funaki
10 Rivez Reihana
11 Leicester Fainga'anuku
12 Quinn Tupaea
13 Billy Proctor
14 Etene Nanai Seturo
15 Cole Forbes16 Kianu Kereru-Symes
17 Robert Cobb
18 Kaliopasi Uluilakepa
19 Tamaiti Williams
20 Taine Plumtree
22 James Thompson
23 Kohan Herbert
24 Leroy Carter
25 Fergus Burke
26 Dallas McLeod
27 Chay FihakiSix players were not considered for the game due to injury and the suspension of Samipeni Finau, who was ruled out when his yellow card against Wales was upgraded to a red card. Three players have been flown from New Zealand to join the squad: Rob Cobb, Chay Fihaki and James Thompson. Keanu Kereru Symes (neck injury), Devan Flanders, Lalomilo Lalomilo (concussion), New Zealand Sevens representative Scott Gregory has a heel injury and has returned to New Zealand while George Dyer has a torn ligament in a toe and will require surgery and will be out for four to six months.So he has a neck injury and can't play, but they still name Kereru-Symes on the bench?
Or a mistake in the list, again? Or do they just write down names for the sake of naming a full bench?NOTE the changed kick-off time of 4.00am on Sunday morning NZT. (I hope Spark Sport has noticed it, too)
http://www.allblacks.com/News/34309/new-zealand-under-20-named-for-ireland-clash
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@Stargazer on a par
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Interesting to see that Robb Cobb has been called in. Weird that he wasn't in the original squad.
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@Stargazer Thought he was playing club rugby at the time, but could be the case.
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The final results of the tournament:
- France have defended their title successfully by beating Australia 24 - 23 in the Final.
- South Africa won bronze by beating Argentina 41 - 16.
- England finished in 5th place by beating Wales 45 - 26.
- New Zealand ends up in 7th place after defeating Ireland 40 - 17.
- Italy finished 9th by beating Georgia 29 - 17.
- Fiji ended the tournament in 11th place by beating Scotland 59 - 34. This last result means that Scotland drops out of the WR U20 Championship and will be relegated to the WR U20 Trophy (in 2020). Scotland will be replaced by the winner of the WR U20 Trophy, to be played for in July 2019 in Brazil.
You can find World Rugby write-up of the final day of the tournament here: https://www.world.rugby/u20/news/431641
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The final results of the tournament:
- France have defended their title successfully by beating Australia 24 - 23 in the Final.
- South Africa won bronze by beating Argentina 41 - 16.
- England finished in 5th place by beating Wales 45 - 26.
- New Zealand ends up in 7th place after defeating Ireland 40 - 17.
- Italy finished 9th by beating Georgia 29 - 17.
- Fiji ended the tournament in 11th place by beating Scotland 59 - 34. This last result means that Scotland drops out of the WR U20 Championship and will be relegated to the WR U20 Trophy (in 2020). Scotland will be replaced by the winner of the WR U20 Trophy, to be played for in July 2019 in Brazil.
You can find World Rugby write-up of the final day of the tournament here: https://www.world.rugby/u20/news/431641
Christ, 7th?
Development, yes, but minimum expectations should also always be making the semis, at least.
Something very wrong with that team and it’s organization.
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Christ, 7th?
Development, yes, but minimum expectations should also always be making the semis, at least.
Something very wrong with that team and it’s organization.
@gt12 said in 2019 under 20's:
Christ, 7th?
Development, yes, but minimum expectations should also always be making the semis, at least.
Something very wrong with that team and it’s organization.
That something is Philpott, he's not a coaches
asshrectum. -
Christ, 7th?
Development, yes, but minimum expectations should also always be making the semis, at least.
Something very wrong with that team and it’s organization.
@gt12 I think the problem starts with NZR, who seem to give age grade rugby (at national level; NZ schools etc) in general, and this group in particular, very little priority. Add to that a very poor coaching staff (not just Philpott, also his assistants are low calibre), and it's a recipe for a disappointing outcome.
Frankly, I don't understand all the organisation and money put into the U19 Jock Hobbs Tournament, if you don't follow it up with a top effort being put into the U20s. I don't buy the "we focus on development, not winning" argument. Surely, if you focus on development, you still want to select the right players and see results? Don't you want to give these players a taste of success and pride in the black jersey, instead of disappointment and humiliation?
Several other countries start at schoolboy level with tests and tours; that will cost money, but if Australia can do it, why can't we (at least at U20 level)? Of course, it will be difficult to replicate what's happening in some countries, where centralisation starts early and where they have way more professional players in this age bracket (a lot of those French players play in Top 14 and Pro D2, and usually for several years already). But I think the "it's not about winning" attitude is wrong.
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@gt12 I think the problem starts with NZR, who seem to give age grade rugby (at national level; NZ schools etc) in general, and this group in particular, very little priority. Add to that a very poor coaching staff (not just Philpott, also his assistants are low calibre), and it's a recipe for a disappointing outcome.
Frankly, I don't understand all the organisation and money put into the U19 Jock Hobbs Tournament, if you don't follow it up with a top effort being put into the U20s. I don't buy the "we focus on development, not winning" argument. Surely, if you focus on development, you still want to select the right players and see results? Don't you want to give these players a taste of success and pride in the black jersey, instead of disappointment and humiliation?
Several other countries start at schoolboy level with tests and tours; that will cost money, but if Australia can do it, why can't we (at least at U20 level)? Of course, it will be difficult to replicate what's happening in some countries, where centralisation starts early and where they have way more professional players in this age bracket (a lot of those French players play in Top 14 and Pro D2, and usually for several years already). But I think the "it's not about winning" attitude is wrong.
@Stargazer at this level, it should be all about winning, especially when you are a powerhouse of rugby
Anything other than a top 4 finish should be treated as a failure.
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This ended up being the NZ squad playing Ireland. Nine players on the bench instead of 12. No reserve hooker. Klein was subbed off in the 71st minutes, so I assume one of the props took over the hooking duties until Klein came back on in the 76th minute (when Williams was in the sin bin). Fihaki was the only player not getting game time off the bench.
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@Stargazer at this level, it should be all about winning, especially when you are a powerhouse of rugby
Anything other than a top 4 finish should be treated as a failure.
@taniwharugby said in 2019 under 20's:
@Stargazer at this level, it should be all about winning, especially when you are a powerhouse of rugby
Anything other than a top 4 finish should be treated as a failure.
It should be all about winning, but within the constraints of domestic structure.
Not go all ever younger, earlier pathwayed, high performance concentration like Stargazer has been advocating.
This is an absolute failure, but the remedy isnt getting the U20 squad playing more youth tests.
The remedy is a competent coach and a better domestic U19s structure. Tbh they can still succeed just with a better coach and no other changes.
I wouldn't describe the Jock Hobbs tournament as an example of NZRU pouring money into youth levels then letting it drift for U20s (debating more stargazers points even though I've quoted TR). The Jock Hobbs tournament is an on-the-cheap 1 week condensed carnival. Timed extremely late in the year, I assume to cater for the schoolboys finishing their school year.
An example of pouring money in to a Jock Hobbs tournament would be a 10 week long weekly tournament coinciding with NPC (so after club season has finished). For 19 year olds not still hanging around their schools like lingering farts.
