2019 under 20's

Stargazer

NZ U20s team to play Ireland for 7th place:

1 Oliver Norris
2 Shilo Klein
3 Fletcher Newell
4 Cullen Grace
5 Tupo Vaa'i
6 Kaylum Boshier (C)
7 Jeriah Mua
8 Simon Parker
9 Taufa Funaki
10 Rivez Reihana
11 Leicester Fainga'anuku
12 Quinn Tupaea
13 Billy Proctor
14 Etene Nanai Seturo
15 Cole Forbes

16 Kianu Kereru-Symes
17 Robert Cobb
18 Kaliopasi Uluilakepa
19 Tamaiti Williams
20 Taine Plumtree
22 James Thompson
23 Kohan Herbert
24 Leroy Carter
25 Fergus Burke
26 Dallas McLeod
27 Chay Fihaki

Six players were not considered for the game due to injury and the suspension of Samipeni Finau, who was ruled out when his yellow card against Wales was upgraded to a red card. Three players have been flown from New Zealand to join the squad: Rob Cobb, Chay Fihaki and James Thompson.

Keanu Kereru Symes (neck injury), Devan Flanders, Lalomilo Lalomilo (concussion), New Zealand Sevens representative Scott Gregory has a heel injury and has returned to New Zealand while George Dyer has a torn ligament in a toe and will require surgery and will be out for four to six months.

So he has a neck injury and can't play, but they still name Kereru-Symes on the bench? Or a mistake in the list, again? Or do they just write down names for the sake of naming a full bench?

NOTE the changed kick-off time of 4.00am on Sunday morning NZT. (I hope Spark Sport has noticed it, too)

http://www.allblacks.com/News/34309/new-zealand-under-20-named-for-ireland-clash

Stargazer

The only thing I like about that line-up are nos. 11-14. Glad to see Burke moved to the bench, so Reihana gets another chance at 10.

Chris

@Stargazer on a par

Tim

Interesting to see that Robb Cobb has been called in. Weird that he wasn't in the original squad.

Stargazer

@Tim Wasn't he injured, initially?

Tim

@Stargazer Thought he was playing club rugby at the time, but could be the case.

Daffy Jaffy

Stargazer

The final results of the tournament:

France have defended their title successfully by beating Australia 24 - 23 in the Final.
South Africa won bronze by beating Argentina 41 - 16.
England finished in 5th place by beating Wales 45 - 26.
New Zealand ends up in 7th place after defeating Ireland 40 - 17.
Italy finished 9th by beating Georgia 29 - 17.
Fiji ended the tournament in 11th place by beating Scotland 59 - 34. This last result means that Scotland drops out of the WR U20 Championship and will be relegated to the WR U20 Trophy (in 2020). Scotland will be replaced by the winner of the WR U20 Trophy, to be played for in July 2019 in Brazil.

You can find World Rugby write-up of the final day of the tournament here: https://www.world.rugby/u20/news/431641

gt12

@Stargazer

Christ, 7th?

Development, yes, but minimum expectations should also always be making the semis, at least.

Something very wrong with that team and it’s organization.

Nepia

@gt12 said in 2019 under 20's:

@Stargazer

Christ, 7th?

Development, yes, but minimum expectations should also always be making the semis, at least.

Something very wrong with that team and it’s organization.

That something is Philpott, he's not a coaches ~~assh~~ rectum.

Stargazer

@gt12 I think the problem starts with NZR, who seem to give age grade rugby (at national level; NZ schools etc) in general, and this group in particular, very little priority. Add to that a very poor coaching staff (not just Philpott, also his assistants are low calibre), and it's a recipe for a disappointing outcome.

Frankly, I don't understand all the organisation and money put into the U19 Jock Hobbs Tournament, if you don't follow it up with a top effort being put into the U20s. I don't buy the "we focus on development, not winning" argument. Surely, if you focus on development, you still want to select the right players and see results? Don't you want to give these players a taste of success and pride in the black jersey, instead of disappointment and humiliation?

Several other countries start at schoolboy level with tests and tours; that will cost money, but if Australia can do it, why can't we (at least at U20 level)? Of course, it will be difficult to replicate what's happening in some countries, where centralisation starts early and where they have way more professional players in this age bracket (a lot of those French players play in Top 14 and Pro D2, and usually for several years already). But I think the "it's not about winning" attitude is wrong.

taniwharugby

@Stargazer at this level, it should be all about winning, especially when you are a powerhouse of rugby

Anything other than a top 4 finish should be treated as a failure.

Stargazer

This ended up being the NZ squad playing Ireland. Nine players on the bench instead of 12. No reserve hooker. Klein was subbed off in the 71st minutes, so I assume one of the props took over the hooking duties until Klein came back on in the 76th minute (when Williams was in the sin bin). Fihaki was the only player not getting game time off the bench.

Rapido

@taniwharugby said in 2019 under 20's:

@Stargazer at this level, it should be all about winning, especially when you are a powerhouse of rugby

Anything other than a top 4 finish should be treated as a failure.

It should be all about winning, but within the constraints of domestic structure.

Not go all ever younger, earlier pathwayed, high performance concentration like Stargazer has been advocating.

This is an absolute failure, but the remedy isnt getting the U20 squad playing more youth tests.

The remedy is a competent coach and a better domestic U19s structure. Tbh they can still succeed just with a better coach and no other changes.

I wouldn't describe the Jock Hobbs tournament as an example of NZRU pouring money into youth levels then letting it drift for U20s (debating more stargazers points even though I've quoted TR). The Jock Hobbs tournament is an on-the-cheap 1 week condensed carnival. Timed extremely late in the year, I assume to cater for the schoolboys finishing their school year.

An example of pouring money in to a Jock Hobbs tournament would be a 10 week long weekly tournament coinciding with NPC (so after club season has finished). For 19 year olds not still hanging around their schools like lingering farts.

Stargazer

@Rapido Just a few clarifications. I was only pointing out that several other countries are already organising tests and international tours for their national schools teams. I'm not advocating that NZ should do the same; I just think it would be better if the NZU20s played more quality opponents before the JWC (now they only play one, Australia). That would be possible by organising a tournament that includes better opponents than Fiji, Japan, Samoa or Tonga, or by competing at a tournament as organised in South Africa this year (participants: SA, Argentina, Georgia and a forgettable Namibia XV).

Also, the U19 tournament is in the first half of September, not late in the year and not meant for schoolboys, who are still eligible to play in secondary school competitions (incl the National Top 4). There are also seeding games; in the Hurricanes catchment they are being played on 3 weekends in August; these are the same weekends that Hurricanes secondary school qualifiers, semi-finals and finals are being played. So the U19s teams play at least 6 games (in the Hurricanes catchment, but I assume it's the same for other regions).

The U19 tournament is basically used to select players for the U20 camps for the following NZ U20 campaign. Usually, the first NZU20 camp is organised in late November/early December. Only a few boys who have played for NZ Schools make the NZU20 camps for the next JWC. Most will have to wait until they've played in the following year's U19 tournament (when they've left school).

ACT Crusader

Just finished watching the final. Well done to both sides on a great game to watch. Aussies effort in the final couple of minutes was pretty good and loose one hand ball carry cost them.

Aussies had some fleet footed forwards that moved like backs. The French forwards were more traditional and were excellent in cleaning out and work at the ruck. In saying that the best clean out of the game was from the Aussie number 22 late in the 2nd half.

Overall some good skills from both sides and played at the level of intensity expected for a final.

Did NZ send a team to this tournament?

Daffy Jaffy

@ACT-Crusader Yes, but we didn't send coaches or selectors.

Stargazer

World Rugby U20s "not the place" for rule experimentation: Gilmore

Junior Wallabies coach Jason Gilmore says the World Rugby U20s Championship should not be the venue for rule experimentation after “overboard” refereeing in this year’s tournament.

The World Rugby U20s Championship is often used to trial new rules and in recent years has been the testing ground for harsher high tackle laws and more stringent send-offs.

There are other law amendments that have been less controversial, with teams allowed to name squads of up to 28 to ease player management throughout the tournament, but it is the high tackle decisions that have caused the most discussion around the tournament.

Gilmore said there were better places to put law changes to the test, pointing to even the second-tier World Rugby U20s Trophy competition as a better option.

“I don't think it's the place for it,” he said.

“All these boys come out from around the world, from Super Rugby or top 14 or European championship and none of those competitions are refereed in the same way so I probably question why the World U20s division one World Cup is the place we're going to be trialling these laws.

“Certainly there's other competitions in the world they could be done at a lower level just to see how it goes but I'm all for protecting the boys, that's got to be first and foremost but I just thought it affected their performances of teams at the world cup, which we don't want.”

Australia had three red cards during the tournament and one citing, while they were also the beneficiary of an early carding in a pool match against Ireland.

Red carded players were referred straight to the judiciary and many of them were let off without a suspension or had suspensions overturned despite the cardings.

Australia alone had a red card suspension and a high tackle citing overruled in the lead-up to the World Rugby U20s championship final.

Gilmore said that discrepancy alone showed that those red card decisions were often premature.

“I'm all for protecting the boys with the high tackle law, definitely, but it's definitely refereed harshly over there,”he said.

“If you have a look at the number of red cards across the tournament, not just with our football team, compared to the suspensions being given out you're really questioning whether the red cards were the maximum penalty in the first place.

“Being a World Cup, you don't want to see teams and games being affected by teams being down to 14 men and 13 men at times.

Bovidae

My only viewing was brief highlights in news articles but I wasn't at all surprised at the failure of this team. As others have said, poorly selected and coached. That started with the naming of the captain, and particularly VCs. The captain needed to be a player who isn't going be to be subbed, while McLeod wouldn't be in my best XV. When I saw the squad named Flanders or Tupaea were the logical choices.

cgrant

The selection and the coaching were poor, that's for sure, but I don't remember having seen a NZ U20 side with so few talents in its ranks ! How many of them will get a SR contract in the next two years ? Not many I think. The locks are a worry as their lack of size was a handicap for the whole pack. The backrow was well below par too. The midfield was poor, both in defense and in attack.
So who did well ? Though he struggled in the set scrums, Tamaiti Williams is one to watch for the future. He was very strong with ball in hand (and he is only 18). He's got time to improve his scrummaging and learn a few tricks. Funaki and Lalomilo had their moments. Kereru-Symes has good hands but does not look big enough for the upper level. Other than these, no other names spring to my mind.

The Silver Fern

2019 under 20's