Flag

Rancid Schnitzel

I'm not a huge fan of the current flag, but if they're going to change it should be with something that is half decent, not just change for the sake of change. The 4 finalists are just shit. 2 of them are basically the current flag with a bloody great fern where the union jack was, 1 looks like something black going down a plughole, and the final one is probably the shittiest version of a silver fern flag you're ever likely to see. 
As for that Red Peak thing. In addition to looking ridiculous, is NZ really all about mountains? Certainly it would apply for places like Bhutan, Nepal and Switzerland. Norway too is obsessed with mountains and heading to the mountains is as common as heading to the beach in Australia. But are the mountains of such importance to NZ that they should be the defining feature of the nation's flag? 
I actually like the 1835 flag.

No Quarter

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="513945" data-time="1441589203">
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It shows how muddled the debate is though. You have some people arguing against the flag because it wasnt done by a 'designer'. then some people arguing agsinst the flag because soem of the designs are similar to a logo used by a company for palstic plates.. who would have used a designer.
 
I find all of these arguments bullshit.
 
You need one reason and one reason only to like or not like a flag or proposed flag. 
 
"I dont like it" Everything else is pretty much fluff or attempts to muddy the waters.
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I like Red Peak because a lot more thought has gone into it. I can also understand why some people don't like it.
 
I said earlier that I could live with one of Lockwood's designs, but there is not a lot of thought gone into it, to the point that the exact same design has been used by multiple different people and companies that are completely separate to each other becuase all he and they have done is stuck a silver fern and a southern cross together. That's why I don't really like it.
 
If someone says they like or dislike something, the natural thing to do is explain why.

mariner4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="513919" data-time="1441583168">
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So no one wants anything that looks like it may be a 'logo'. Fair enough, that just leaves traditional style bands of colours and I have the perfect solution...
 
 
<img src="http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/it_rom98.gif" alt="it_rom98.gif">
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For accuracy, this should have a big Blue and Gold boot print stamped on it

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="513954" data-time="1441590148">
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For accuracy, this should have a big Blue and Gold boot print stamped on it
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Kick a man while he's down why don't you.

mariner4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="513956" data-time="1441590430">
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Kick a man while he's down why don't you.
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just call me Troy Flavell

Tim

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="513919" data-time="1441583168">
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So no one wants anything that looks like it may be a 'logo'. Fair enough, that just leaves traditional style bands of colours and I have the perfect solution...
 
 
<img src="http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/it_rom98.gif" alt="it_rom98.gif">
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<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic_(18th_century)'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic_(18th_century)</a>
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Udmurt_Republic'>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Udmurt_Republic</a>

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="513937" data-time="1441587791">
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so how should it be done?
 
Parliament just select a flag for the 4 million people? get a panel of 12 people to choose it from hundreds of submissions? Let everyone vote on all 300 (or however many) submissions?
 
Easy to be critical of a process, but no way will satisfy everyone.
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I think the problem with the process was that it was a top down process rather than a bottom up process. A flag referendum is a big debate and it is all happening quite quickly. I think there should be at least a year between each stage in the process. The cut was made from 40 flags to 4 in three weeks. That isn't really enough time for people to make up their minds. I think there probably should have been more public input on the final 40 designs. I also think there should have been more time to debate. I think the panel did the right thing by selecting two Lockwood designs because there are some people who strongly preferred one colour scheme to the other. The problem was that I never heard anyone actually say they liked the other silver fern or the koru.
 
I think Red Peak must be added as an option but I probably wonâ€t vote for it. I like the black and blue Lockwood fern.

Crucial

Of all the flag options I have ever seen, visually I still like this one and it is a pity that such a good looking flag now holds associations that would see it struggle in a vote.
 
<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereignty_movement_flag.svg/250px-Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereignty_movement_flag.svg.png" alt="250px-Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereig">

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513953" data-time="1441590009">
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I like Red Peak because a lot more thought has gone into it. I can also understand why some people don't like it.
 
I said earlier that I could live with one of Lockwood's designs, but there is not a lot of thought gone into it, to the point that the exact same design has been used by multiple different people and companies that are completely separate to each other becuase all he and they have done is stuck a silver fern and a southern cross together. That's why I don't really like it.
 
If someone says they like or dislike something, the natural thing to do is explain why.
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A lot more thought has gone into it? How exactly do you measure that? I could say the red peak didnt have much thought put into it as well.
Impossible to measure. Just another example of the facile nature of many of the arguments.
 
Put a red triangle for a mountain (like all NZ is represented by that).. then colour around it with black and blue?

Baron Silas Greenback

Looks very likely that the flag wont be changed anyway, I was genuinely surprised by the One news poll that showed a clear favour to not change.

No Quarter

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="513962" data-time="1441592941">
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A lot more thought has gone into it? How exactly do you measure that? I could say the red peak didnt have much thought put into it as well.
Impossible to measure. Just another example of the facile nature of many of the arguments.
 
Put a red triangle for a mountain (like all NZ is represented by that).. then colour around it with black and blue? 
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I was referring to this <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://aotearoaflag.tumblr.com/'>http://aotearoaflag.tumblr.com/</a> - that all makes good sense to me which is why that is the design I am in favour of. Just sticking a Silver Fern and a Southern Cross together and calling it our flag doesn't really do it for me. 
 
We are all basically debating which piece of art work we like the best. We're never all going to agree on something that personal.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513967" data-time="1441594522">
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I was referring to this <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://aotearoaflag.tumblr.com/'>http://aotearoaflag.tumblr.com/</a> - that all makes good sense to me which is why that is the design I am in favour of. Just sticking a Silver Fern and a Southern Cross together and calling it our flag doesn't really do it for me.
 
We are all basically debating which piece of art work we like the best. We're never all going to agree on something that personal.
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I think that is Baron's point. People can choose to want a white fern on a black background if that is the flag they want. People can choose a flag which wasn't done by a professional designer if that is what they want. People can choose a flag which is too difficult for a 5 year old to draw if that is what they want. There shouldn't be any rules here.

Rancid Schnitzel

Doing a bit of research, I really quite like the history behind the Flag of the United Tribes from 1835: 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nzflag.com/flagswelike.cfm'>http://www.nzflag.com/flagswelike.cfm</a>
 
This flag also appeared on the medals of those who served in the Boer War.

Kirwan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="513964" data-time="1441593332">
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Looks very likely that the flag wont be changed anyway, I was genuinely surprised by the One news poll that showed a clear favour to not change.
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Be interested to see what it was like before the four options were finalized.

hydro11

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://umr.co.nz/sites/umr/files/umr_flag_referendum_-_aug_2015.pdf'>Both Lockwood designs led the current flag before the final four designs had been announced.</a> I think these results prove my point. You needed to have the two Lockwood designs in there as they were the two most popular ones. The other silver fern and koru were well down the pecking order.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="513899" data-time="1441577542">
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I don't think it will be loved straight off. But its been pointed out earlier that the Canadian flag by example was not universally liked, in fact there were many that hated it. Yet it is iconic now, and loved
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That's because they're remarkably polite.
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513928" data-time="1441585850">
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Beats NZ looking like a company that makes plastic plates ;)
 
<img src="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN0BltoUkAABJXC.jpg" alt="CN0BltoUkAABJXC.jpg">
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On the assumption that packaging has been around a while, it makes a mockery of copyright claims...

rotated

The Lockwood designs look like something Sonny Shaw would wave.

taniwharugby

unless the designer owns those 'images' too?

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513936" data-time="1441587514">
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And that is the flaw of a panel of 12 people choosing 4 flags that 4 million people are happy with. An impossible task.
 
They could have at least gone with 4 different designs though. Just saying. :)
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Its not. It has been explained above how it should have been done

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513938" data-time="1441588591">
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is a better way, more that no matter what you do it is going to be an impossible task to make everyone happy. Democracy doesn't work very well for a process like this - it will always be controversial just as it was when Canada changed their flag.
 
My only sticking point is that 2 of the final 4 designs are the same. That's a poor decision IMO.
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Democracy was perfect for this decision. The process is good. But the committee selection was dreadful. That's where it went wrong. And will likely end up being a waste of money with the current flag being much better than the rubbish final 4

The Silver Fern

Flag