Flag
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="513937" data-time="1441587791">
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<p>so how should it be done?</p>
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<p>Parliament just select a flag for the 4 million people? get a panel of 12 people to choose it from hundreds of submissions? Let everyone vote on all 300 (or however many) submissions?</p>
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<p>Easy to be critical of a process, but no way will satisfy everyone.</p>
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<p>I think the problem with the process was that it was a top down process rather than a bottom up process. A flag referendum is a big debate and it is all happening quite quickly. I think there should be at least a year between each stage in the process. The cut was made from 40 flags to 4 in three weeks. That isn't really enough time for people to make up their minds. I think there probably should have been more public input on the final 40 designs. I also think there should have been more time to debate. I think the panel did the right thing by selecting two Lockwood designs because there are some people who strongly preferred one colour scheme to the other. The problem was that I never heard anyone actually say they liked the other silver fern or the koru.</p>
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<p>I think Red Peak must be added as an option but I probably wonâ€
t vote for it. I like the black and blue Lockwood fern.</p> -
<p>Of all the flag options I have ever seen, visually I still like this one and it is a pity that such a good looking flag now holds associations that would see it struggle in a vote.</p>
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<p><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereignty_movement_flag.svg/250px-Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereignty_movement_flag.svg.png" alt="250px-Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereig"></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513953" data-time="1441590009">
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<p>I like Red Peak because a lot more thought has gone into it. I can also understand why some people don't like it.</p>
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<p>I said earlier that I could live with one of Lockwood's designs, but there is not a lot of thought gone into it, to the point that the exact same design has been used by multiple different people and companies that are completely separate to each other becuase all he and they have done is stuck a silver fern and a southern cross together. That's why I don't really like it.</p>
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<p>If someone says they like or dislike something, the natural thing to do is explain why.</p>
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<p>A lot more thought has gone into it? How exactly do you measure that? I could say the red peak didnt have much thought put into it as well.</p>
<p>Impossible to measure. Just another example of the facile nature of many of the arguments.</p>
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<p>Put a red triangle for a mountain (like all NZ is represented by that).. then colour around it with black and blue? </p> -
<p>Looks very likely that the flag wont be changed anyway, I was genuinely surprised by the One news poll that showed a clear favour to not change.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="513962" data-time="1441592941">
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<p>A lot more thought has gone into it? How exactly do you measure that? I could say the red peak didnt have much thought put into it as well.</p>
<p>Impossible to measure. Just another example of the facile nature of many of the arguments.</p>
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<p>Put a red triangle for a mountain (like all NZ is represented by that).. then colour around it with black and blue? </p>
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<p>I was referring to this <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://aotearoaflag.tumblr.com/'>http://aotearoaflag.tumblr.com/</a> - that all makes good sense to me which is why that is the design I am in favour of. Just sticking a Silver Fern and a Southern Cross together and calling it our flag doesn't really do it for me. </p>
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<p>We are all basically debating which piece of art work we like the best. We're never all going to agree on something that personal.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513967" data-time="1441594522">
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<p>I was referring to this <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://aotearoaflag.tumblr.com/'>http://aotearoaflag.tumblr.com/</a> - that all makes good sense to me which is why that is the design I am in favour of. Just sticking a Silver Fern and a Southern Cross together and calling it our flag doesn't really do it for me.</p>
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<p>We are all basically debating which piece of art work we like the best. We're never all going to agree on something that personal.</p>
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<p>I think that is Baron's point. People can choose to want a white fern on a black background if that is the flag they want. People can choose a flag which wasn't done by a professional designer if that is what they want. People can choose a flag which is too difficult for a 5 year old to draw if that is what they want. There shouldn't be any rules here.</p> -
<p>Doing a bit of research, I really quite like the history behind the Flag of the United Tribes from 1835:<br><br>
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nzflag.com/flagswelike.cfm'>http://www.nzflag.com/flagswelike.cfm</a></p>
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<p>This flag also appeared on the medals of those who served in the Boer War.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="513964" data-time="1441593332">
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<p>Looks very likely that the flag wont be changed anyway, I was genuinely surprised by the One news poll that showed a clear favour to not change.</p>
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<p>Be interested to see what it was like before the four options were finalized.</p> -
<p><span style="font-family:calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:11pt;"><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://umr.co.nz/sites/umr/files/umr_flag_referendum_-_aug_2015.pdf'>Both Lockwood designs led the current flag before the final four designs had been announced.</a> I think these results prove my point. You needed to have the two Lockwood designs in there as they were the two most popular ones. The other silver fern and koru were well down the pecking order.</span></span></p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="513899" data-time="1441577542">
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<p>I don't think it will be loved straight off. But its been pointed out earlier that the Canadian flag by example was not universally liked, in fact there were many that hated it. Yet it is iconic now, and loved</p>
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<p>That's because they're remarkably polite.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513928" data-time="1441585850">
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<p>Beats NZ looking like a company that makes plastic plates ;)</p>
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<p><img src="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN0BltoUkAABJXC.jpg" alt="CN0BltoUkAABJXC.jpg"></p>
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<p>On the assumption that packaging has been around a while, it makes a mockery of copyright claims...</p> -
<p>unless the designer owns those 'images' too?</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513936" data-time="1441587514">
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<p>And that is the flaw of a panel of 12 people choosing 4 flags that 4 million people are happy with. <span style="color:#ff0000;">An impossible task.</span></p>
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<p>They could have at least gone with 4 <em>different</em> designs though. Just saying. :)</p>
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<p>Its not. It has been explained above how it should have been done</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513938" data-time="1441588591">
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<p>Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is a better way, more that no matter what you do it is going to be an impossible task to make everyone happy. Democracy doesn't work very well for a process like this - it will always be controversial just as it was when Canada changed their flag.</p>
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<p>My only sticking point is that 2 of the final 4 designs are the same. That's a poor decision IMO.</p>
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<p>Democracy was perfect for this decision. The process is good. But the committee selection was dreadful. That's where it went wrong. And will likely end up being a waste of money with the current flag being much better than the rubbish final 4</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="513961" data-time="1441591925">
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<p>Of all the flag options I have ever seen, visually I still like this one and it is a pity that such a good looking flag now holds associations that would see it struggle in a vote.</p>
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<p><img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereignty_movement_flag.svg/250px-Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereignty_movement_flag.svg.png" alt="250px-Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereig"></p>
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<p>I like this one. Add a white Southern cross and its even better maybe</p>
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<p>It could have been one of the final 4. With the red peak, one and only one fern option (either all Black with a white fern + red SC or DARK blue and black plus SC) and one other option</p>
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<p>Then the debate would be today about the best flags not how shit the final 4 are and where the process went wrong.</p>
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<p>And</p>
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<p>Red Peak is miles in front</p>
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<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/71792805/easy-to-add-red-peak-flag-to-referendum--expert'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/71792805/easy-to-add-red-peak-flag-to-referendum--expert</a></p>
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<p>Not surprising really considering how bad the final 4 are</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="513994" data-time="1441601706">
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<p>I like this one. Add a white Southern cross and its even better maybe</p>
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<p>It could have been one of the final 4. With the red peak, one and only one fern option (either all Black with a white fern + red SC or DARK blue and black plus SC) and one other option</p>
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<p>Then the debate would be today about the best flags not how shit the final 4 are and where the process went wrong.</p>
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<p>how naive. The 4 chosen could have been the best flags in the history of man kind, and there would still be people moaning about the process, how it's flawed, and how this other, 5th choice that hasn't been considered is far superior to anything this terrible panel has chosen (and fuck John key).</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="513995" data-time="1441602074">
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<p>how naive. The 4 chosen could have been the best flags in the history of man kind, and there would still be people moaning about the process, how it's flawed, and how this other, 5th choice that hasn't been considered is far superior to anything this terrible panel has chosen (and fuck John key).</p>
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<p>Rubbish. If there had been a committee of experts who selected 4 good different options the outcome would have been very different</p>
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<p>People instinctively know what works and doesn't work even though if they made the choice themselves it might be poor.</p>
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<p>Take computer products (or phones or cars)</p>
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<p>If individuals decide then a great product quickly gets market share. But in companies the standard of say computer ERP systems etc can often be crap. that happens when a committee of poorly qualified mostly non users make the decision based on just playing it safe. That is sort of the equivalent to what has happened here. A unqualified committee who haven't a clue just played it safe</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="513999" data-time="1441603013">
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<p>Rubbish. If there had been a committee of experts who selected 4 good different options the outcome would have been very different</p>
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<p>People instinctively know what works and doesn't work even though if they made the choice themselves it might be poor.</p>
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<p>Take computer products (or phones or cars)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If individuals decide then a great product quickly gets market share. But in companies the standard of say computer ERP systems etc can often be crap. that happens when a committee of poorly qualified mostly non users make the decision based on just playing it safe. That is sort of the equivalent to what has happened here. A unqualified committee who haven't a clue just played it safe</p>
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<p>By "a committee of experts" i am assuming you are referring back to your assertion the only people who can make a decision about the new standard by which our country will be identified are graphic designers. Which I, and many others, think is bullshit. There, i instantly don't agree with your process and think it's rubbish, flawed, and made by a bunch of people who don't appear to represent my interests. </p>
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<p>The graphic designers period of expertise was preparing the designs for judging, not also doing the judging for something as emotive as our national standard. </p> -
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="513999" data-time="1441603013">
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<p>Rubbish. If there had been a committee of experts who selected 4 good different options the outcome would have been very different</p>
<p> </p>
<p>People instinctively know what works and doesn't work even though if they made the choice themselves it might be poor.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Take computer products (or phones or cars)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If individuals decide then a great product quickly gets market share. But in companies the standard of say computer ERP systems etc can often be crap. that happens when a committee of poorly qualified mostly non users make the decision based on just playing it safe. That is sort of the equivalent to what has happened here. A unqualified committee who haven't a clue just played it safe</p>
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<p>They were a panel of experts.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="513995" data-time="1441602074"><p>how naive. The 4 chosen could have been the best flags in the history of man kind, and there would still be people moaning about the process, how it's flawed, and how this other, 5th choice that hasn't been considered is far superior to anything this terrible panel has chosen (and fuck John key).</p></blockquote>
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Yep the same people who have been sneering at the whole idea have suddenly decided that the red peak is the way to go . I'm not sure who the panel should have been made up of but having the head of an advertising agency who would presumably know a bit about branding and a flag expert would look to be a great start. <br><br>
To summarise the left on the flag debate - what a waste of money - Key is trying to turn nz into a brand- it's a distraction from (insert legislation or media manufactured crisis here) - hang on here's an opportunity to embarrass key,-this triangle thing is cool , time to hit Facebook and twitter and get this thing trending .<br><br>
If they are so passionate about it why were the so quiet about it till the middle do last week?
