Flag

Rancid Schnitzel

Doing a bit of research, I really quite like the history behind the Flag of the United Tribes from 1835: 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nzflag.com/flagswelike.cfm'>http://www.nzflag.com/flagswelike.cfm</a>
 
This flag also appeared on the medals of those who served in the Boer War.

Kirwan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="513964" data-time="1441593332">
<div>
Looks very likely that the flag wont be changed anyway, I was genuinely surprised by the One news poll that showed a clear favour to not change.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Be interested to see what it was like before the four options were finalized.

hydro11

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://umr.co.nz/sites/umr/files/umr_flag_referendum_-_aug_2015.pdf'>Both Lockwood designs led the current flag before the final four designs had been announced.</a> I think these results prove my point. You needed to have the two Lockwood designs in there as they were the two most popular ones. The other silver fern and koru were well down the pecking order.

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="513899" data-time="1441577542">
<div>
I don't think it will be loved straight off. But its been pointed out earlier that the Canadian flag by example was not universally liked, in fact there were many that hated it. Yet it is iconic now, and loved
</div>
</blockquote>
 
That's because they're remarkably polite.
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513928" data-time="1441585850">
<div>
Beats NZ looking like a company that makes plastic plates ;)
 
<img src="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CN0BltoUkAABJXC.jpg" alt="CN0BltoUkAABJXC.jpg">
</div>
</blockquote>
 
On the assumption that packaging has been around a while, it makes a mockery of copyright claims...

rotated

The Lockwood designs look like something Sonny Shaw would wave.

taniwharugby

unless the designer owns those 'images' too?

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513936" data-time="1441587514">
<div>
And that is the flaw of a panel of 12 people choosing 4 flags that 4 million people are happy with. An impossible task.
 
They could have at least gone with 4 different designs though. Just saying. :)
</div>
</blockquote>
Its not. It has been explained above how it should have been done

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="513938" data-time="1441588591">
<div>
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is a better way, more that no matter what you do it is going to be an impossible task to make everyone happy. Democracy doesn't work very well for a process like this - it will always be controversial just as it was when Canada changed their flag.
 
My only sticking point is that 2 of the final 4 designs are the same. That's a poor decision IMO.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Democracy was perfect for this decision. The process is good. But the committee selection was dreadful. That's where it went wrong. And will likely end up being a waste of money with the current flag being much better than the rubbish final 4

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="513961" data-time="1441591925">
<div>
Of all the flag options I have ever seen, visually I still like this one and it is a pity that such a good looking flag now holds associations that would see it struggle in a vote.
 
<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereignty_movement_flag.svg/250px-Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereignty_movement_flag.svg.png" alt="250px-Tino_Rangatiratanga_Maori_sovereig">
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I like this one. Add a white Southern cross and its even better maybe
 
It could have been one of the final 4. With the red peak, one and only one fern option (either all Black with a white fern + red SC or DARK blue and black plus SC) and one other option
 
Then the debate would be today about the best flags not how shit the final 4 are and where the process went wrong.
 
And
 
Red Peak is miles in front
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/71792805/easy-to-add-red-peak-flag-to-referendum--expert'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/71792805/easy-to-add-red-peak-flag-to-referendum--expert</a>
 
Not surprising really considering how bad the final 4 are

mariner4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="513994" data-time="1441601706">
<div>
I like this one. Add a white Southern cross and its even better maybe
 
It could have been one of the final 4. With the red peak, one and only one fern option (either all Black with a white fern + red SC or DARK blue and black plus SC) and one other option
 
Then the debate would be today about the best flags not how shit the final 4 are and where the process went wrong.
</div>
</blockquote>
how naive. The 4 chosen could have been the best flags in the history of man kind, and there would still be people moaning about the process, how it's flawed, and how this other, 5th choice that hasn't been considered is far superior to anything this terrible panel has chosen (and fuck John key).

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="513995" data-time="1441602074">
<div>
how naive. The 4 chosen could have been the best flags in the history of man kind, and there would still be people moaning about the process, how it's flawed, and how this other, 5th choice that hasn't been considered is far superior to anything this terrible panel has chosen (and fuck John key).
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Rubbish. If there had been a committee of experts who selected 4 good different options the outcome would have been very different
 
People instinctively know what works and doesn't work even though if they made the choice themselves it might be poor.
 
Take computer products (or phones or cars)
 
If individuals decide then a great product quickly gets market share. But in companies the standard of say computer ERP systems etc can often be crap. that happens when a committee of poorly qualified mostly non users make the decision based on just playing it safe. That is sort of the equivalent to what has happened here. A unqualified committee who haven't a clue just played it safe

mariner4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="513999" data-time="1441603013">
<div>
Rubbish. If there had been a committee of experts who selected 4 good different options the outcome would have been very different
 
People instinctively know what works and doesn't work even though if they made the choice themselves it might be poor.
 
Take computer products (or phones or cars)
 
If individuals decide then a great product quickly gets market share. But in companies the standard of say computer ERP systems etc can often be crap. that happens when a committee of poorly qualified mostly non users make the decision based on just playing it safe. That is sort of the equivalent to what has happened here. A unqualified committee who haven't a clue just played it safe
</div>
</blockquote>
By "a committee of experts" i am assuming you are referring back to your assertion the only people who can make a decision about the new standard by which our country will be identified are graphic designers. Which I, and many others, think is bullshit. There, i instantly don't agree with your process and think it's rubbish, flawed, and made by a bunch of people who don't appear to represent my interests. 
 
The graphic designers period of expertise was preparing the designs for judging, not also doing the judging for something as emotive as our national standard.

Baron Silas Greenback

<div> </div>
<div>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="513999" data-time="1441603013">
<div>
Rubbish. If there had been a committee of experts who selected 4 good different options the outcome would have been very different
 
People instinctively know what works and doesn't work even though if they made the choice themselves it might be poor.
 
Take computer products (or phones or cars)
 
If individuals decide then a great product quickly gets market share. But in companies the standard of say computer ERP systems etc can often be crap. that happens when a committee of poorly qualified mostly non users make the decision based on just playing it safe. That is sort of the equivalent to what has happened here. A unqualified committee who haven't a clue just played it safe
</div>
<div> </div>
</blockquote>
</div>
 
They were a panel of experts.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="513995" data-time="1441602074">how naive. The 4 chosen could have been the best flags in the history of man kind, and there would still be people moaning about the process, how it's flawed, and how this other, 5th choice that hasn't been considered is far superior to anything this terrible panel has chosen (and fuck John key).</blockquote>
 
Yep the same people who have been sneering at the whole idea have suddenly decided that the red peak is the way to go . I'm not sure who the panel should have been made up of but having the head of an advertising agency who would presumably know a bit about branding and a flag expert would look to be a great start. 
To summarise the left on the flag debate - what a waste of money - Key is trying to turn nz into a brand- it's a distraction from (insert legislation or media manufactured crisis here) - hang on here's an opportunity to embarrass key,-this triangle thing is cool , time to hit Facebook and twitter and get this thing trending . 
If they are so passionate about it why were the so quiet about it till the middle do last week?

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="514001" data-time="1441604018">
<div>
By "a committee of experts" i am assuming you are referring back to your assertion the only people who can make a decision about the new standard by which our country will be identified are graphic designers. Which I, and many others, think is bullshit. There, i instantly don't agree with your process and think it's rubbish, flawed, and made by a bunch of people who don't appear to represent my interests. 
 
The graphic designers period of expertise was preparing the designs for judging, not also doing the judging for something as emotive as our national standard. 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
I come back to what I said above. Would you want a committee of graphic designers (who may not even be interested in rugby or sport) selecting the AB's. Disagree all you like but it's what has happened here. With a predictable outcome

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="514004" data-time="1441604348">
<div>
Yep the same people who have been sneering at the whole idea have suddenly decided that the red peak is the way to go . I'm not sure who the panel should have been made up of but having the head of an advertising agency who would presumably know a bit about branding and a flag expert would look to be a great start. 
To summarise the left on the flag debate - what a waste of money - Key is trying to turn nz into a brand- it's a distraction from (insert legislation or media manufactured crisis here) - hang on here's an opportunity to embarrass key,-this triangle thing is cool , time to hit Facebook and twitter and get this thing trending . 
If they are so passionate about it why were the so quiet about it till the middle do last week?
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I said a committee of 6 above with half having appropriate training and proven work experience and the other half related skills. Like a flag expert and head of an adverting agency
 
No inappropriate selections like an ex AB.
 
Its like the chairmen of NZRU might not be the best AB selector but might be on the committee ... But a graphical designer with no interest in rugby is inappropriate

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="514005" data-time="1441604417">
<div>
I come back to what I said above. Would you want a committee of graphic designers (who may not even be interested in rugby or sport) selecting the AB's. Disagree all you like but it's what has happened here. With a predictable outcome
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
Please post this list of flag picking experts.
Not a list of designers and graphics artists, they are not flag picking experts.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="514006" data-time="1441604658">
<div>
I said a committee of 6 above with half having appropriate training and proven work experience and the other half related skills. Like a flag expert and head of an adverting agency
 
No inappropriate selections like an ex AB. Its like the chairmen of NZRU might not be the best AB selector
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
There are people with flag design qualifications? Where do they offer that course? AUT? Must be a very niche position.
 
No matter how much you rabbit on about designers knowing best about choosing a flag, doesnt make it so.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="514005" data-time="1441604417">
<div>
I come back to what I said above. Would you want a committee of graphic designers (who may not even be interested in rugby or sport) selecting the AB's. Disagree all you like but it's what has happened here. With a predictable outcome
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Graphic designers are graphic designers. We aren't picking the flag that looks the best. We are picking the flag which represents us as people. How would graphic designers know that?

mariner4life

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="514005" data-time="1441604417">
<div>
I come back to what I said above. Would you want a committee of graphic designers (who may not even be interested in rugby or sport) selecting the AB's. Disagree all you like but it's what has happened here. With a predictable outcome
</div>
</blockquote>
you keep saying this shit like it means something. it's a shit analogy, and it's a retarded idea. No matter how many times you say it, it doesn't make it right. Hydro and Baron have laid my thoughts out. that's three of us. on this page. Proving my point.

The Silver Fern

Flag