Flag

Hooroo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="514056" data-time="1441614016">I worked in a commercial Interior company many years back 
The head male designer was a little outrageous but did outstanding work. He knew what the companies wanted. So he would wear a certain type of clothes or choose a certain design for his house but knew that what he would do for himself was not appropriate for everyone 
The office we worked in (designed by this designer) was easily the best laid out and best colour schemes by miles that I have worked in. Even those that didn't like him agreed that he was top class. Many (or most that I have worked in) office color schemes are boring or clash. 
This is the sort of person that I'm referring to. But with an interest in flags.</blockquote>
To me that is the equivalent of saying GJ Gardner should have designed the flag because they designed a nice house

jegga

This sums up the people like Manhire behind the red peak and their sad behaviour recently quite nicely, the part about the abs is true. I've seen leftards saying theres a rift in the team because McCaw is close to Key and Kaino and Mealamu are staunch labour men and Key commercialised the beehive allowing adidas to use it to promote their brand. Get a life ffs.
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/71791596/tiny-minority-has-its-say-far-too-late-in-flag-debate'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/71791596/tiny-minority-has-its-say-far-too-late-in-flag-debate</a>
 
Winger be sure to read this one and have a think about the company you're keeping 
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/71783746/a-purrfect-example-of-why-politics-and-sport-dont-mix'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/71783746/a-purrfect-example-of-why-politics-and-sport-dont-mix</a>

Hooroo

Personally, if designers designed a decent flag it would have been chosen. 
The fact that the selectors were rather diverse in their backgrounds is probably the best reason they were chosen. Most New Zealanders can identify with at least one of them.

taniwharugby

What about all those professional flag pickers that went to Flag Picking University to obtain their masters in Flag Pickingology, it is criminal none of them were selected on the panel!

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="514134" data-time="1441652600">
<div>
What about all those professional flag pickers that went to Flag Picking University to obtain their masters in Flag Pickingology, it is criminal none of them were selected on the panel!
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</blockquote>
 
Tell me about it, we were trying to pick a flag the other night and we called the professional flag pickers company and judging by the voice on the end of the line they'd outsourced their flag picking to the Phillipines! Personally I think the decline of the flag picking industry can be blamed on the neoliberal agenda of the Key government and it saddens me to see this once thriving industry dying. My grandfather was a flag picker you know, I'm glad he's not around to see this.

Mokey

I'm not a fan of the peak at all. It's all very well to have paragraph after paragraph of explanation - this represents dawn, earth, southern alps blah blah blah, but that context will never be anywhere near the flagpole. Are we saying that dawn and earth and mountains are unique to NZ?
 
The fern is instantly recognisable as New Zealand. No paragraphs required. Saying a criteria is easily drawn, what a crock of shit (a fern is still much easier than the bird of paradise on the Papua New Guinea flag for example - instantly recognisable, don't hear them bitching about how hard it is to draw.)

Donsteppa

If we lost the current flag for the peak flag I'd be highly unimpressed. I'm very happy that it didn't make the top four.

JC

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="514095" data-time="1441623466">
<div>
This is from PR. Agree 100%
 
The top 4 show just how clueless this panel was
 
<img src="https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/11950287_10153221845087672_8504148472277993304_o.jpg" alt="11950287_10153221845087672_8504148472277">
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</blockquote>
 
The other day I was trying to explain to my nephew what a Straw Man argument is. But this is a far better example than anything I could have come up with. Outstanding work.

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="514128" data-time="1441650898">
<div>
This sums up the people like Manhire behind the red peak and their sad behaviour recently quite nicely, the part about the abs is true. I've seen leftards saying theres a rift in the team because McCaw is close to Key and Kaino and Mealamu are staunch labour men and Key commercialised the beehive allowing adidas to use it to promote their brand. Get a life ffs.
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/71791596/tiny-minority-has-its-say-far-too-late-in-flag-debate'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/71791596/tiny-minority-has-its-say-far-too-late-in-flag-debate</a>
 
Winger be sure to read this one and have a think about the company you're keeping 
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/71783746/a-purrfect-example-of-why-politics-and-sport-dont-mix'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/71783746/a-purrfect-example-of-why-politics-and-sport-dont-mix</a>
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Couldn't care in the slightest
 
The 4 final selections are crap. Three fern. Why three ferns FFS (only 1 was needed) and not even the best fern options
 
And the only non fern is not great. The flag selection committee didn't have a clue. Either how to generate more interest before the selections were made, select the flags or to market the flag when selected (it seems as an observer from the UK).
 
But I'm surprised more aren't backing a vote where people have a greater variety of choice. Rather than 3 ferns and an option that has got no show of either winning or replacing the current flag. Add at least one good alternative and give the public a sensible option to a fern.

Kirwan

Even it comes down to four or five designs, I think it's clear that NZ is going to vote to keep the current flag.
 
I like the Red Peak one, I can separate the crazy leftards from my own opinion on simplicity being better for a flag. Personally, I think we should ignore the ISIS issue and have a black flag with a white fern on it.

jegga

Have Robyn Malcolm or Lucy Lawless endorsed the red peak yet?

No Quarter

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mokey" data-cid="514144" data-time="1441659711">
<div>
I'm not a fan of the peak at all. It's all very well to have paragraph after paragraph of explanation - this represents dawn, earth, southern alps blah blah blah, but that context will never be anywhere near the flagpole. Are we saying that dawn and earth and mountains are unique to NZ?
 
The fern is instantly recognisable as New Zealand. No paragraphs required. Saying a criteria is easily drawn, what a crock of shit (a fern is still much easier than the bird of paradise on the Papua New Guinea flag for example - instantly recognisable, don't hear them bitching about how hard it is to draw.)
</div>
</blockquote>
 
If we are going to have the Fern then I would rather it look like an actual Fern, not a bloody feather like the Lockwood designs do.
 
The guy that did the AB Fern said he would be happy to help redesign it to make it look better - let's hope he gets taken up on that offer if we vote to change.
 
Edit - the comparison to the PNG flag is a good one. Very difficult to draw but I think they have one of the most beautiful flags of any nation. :)

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Hooroo" data-cid="514127" data-time="1441650849">
<div>
To me that is the equivalent of saying GJ Gardner should have designed the flag because they designed a nice house
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</blockquote>
 
 
The design process was good
 
But the process part from seems very poor. Esp the membership of the Flag Consideration Panel

Winger

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Kirwan" data-cid="514156" data-time="1441661725">
<div>
Even it comes down to four or five designs, I think it's clear that NZ is going to vote to keep the current flag.
 
I like the Red Peak one, I can separate the crazy leftards from my own opinion on simplicity being better for a flag. Personally, I think we should ignore the ISIS issue and have a black flag with a white fern on it. 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
Agree. That should have been one of the options. And maybe only one more fern option.
 
Then let the public decide. Is the ISIS issue really an issue or not.

Baron Silas Greenback

The vast majority of the peak flag nonsense is driven by politics. Just another ill conceived attempt by the social media left in NZ to sabotage the process.
Firstly they whinged about the cost, then they whinged about the desire to change the flag at all, then they whinged about the final 4 options, then they whinged about the process.
It is now just a way that the left in NZ can justify the hypocrisy of their position, they campaigned on changing the flag... then they reliased John Key was going to do it.. so they strew a strop...now they want back in again... but with their own option.
 
Sorry fellas..

No Quarter

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Kirwan" data-cid="514156" data-time="1441661725">
<div>
Even it comes down to four or five designs, I think it's clear that NZ is going to vote to keep the current flag.
 
I like the Red Peak one, I can separate the crazy leftards from my own opinion on simplicity being better for a flag. Personally, I think we should ignore the ISIS issue and have a black flag with a white fern on it. 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
The ISIS argument is such bullshit. We are actually going to let a group of fucking nutjobs from the other side of the world have an influence on what flag we choose to represent our nation?
 
And I don't care if people say it looks like a pirates flag either, I've always quite liked the idea of being a pirate searching for treasure. I had the epic collection of pirates lego when I was a kid.

taniwharugby

if they were to amend the process to allow the Red Peak, whats to stop another campaign to include a black flag with the white fern? Where does it stop?

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="514160" data-time="1441662538">
<div>
The design process was good
 
But the process part from seems very poor. Esp the membership of the Flag Consideration Panel
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I'm not sure that it was.
 
Looking back on it I think we would have a better result of choices if the panel included designers that had studied flagology and had gathered public ideas then tweaked them as needed to correct proportions, colours, definitions etc before then just presenting the public with a few ideas to debate. The results of that public debate could then go back for any further tweaking or change.
The way it was done was that the debate was done before people saw the options. The decisions were made by a well meaning committee and the designs were as presented and without peer review on the finished product.
 
Lets say the panel presented a black fern on a white background then the public feedback was overwhelming that people not only preffered but would vote for a white fern on black. The debate could be held about 'black flags' and whether we were happy to stand by any criticism and support it no matter what. That option could then be presented back to us in a referendum....
 
Forget issues of ISIS. It has nothing to do with them. Traditionally black flags are a sign of aggression just as white flags are a sign of surrender. However, the counter argument is that lots of countries have white based flags and aren't surrendering. we can buck the 'tradition' and show that a black flag does not have to mean aggression. 
 
I came into this process as someone that would like a change of flag and always said I would be happy to vote for one that I thought was good. However, the more I look at the options the less I like them and am now pissed off that through this whole process we couldn't present a decent option. I like the story behind red peak, I like the fact that it is well proportioned and looks like a flag not a logo, but for some reason it just doesn't grab me or give me a feeling of 'that's our flag'. If it was already our flag I wouldn't be bothered changing it though.
 
I still believe we should change our flag as part of our country 'growing up'. We aren't a British Colony any more and the Union Jack has no relevance to me (it has historical relevance but so does whaling or beating schoolkids for speaking Maori). The Southern Cross may show how we were colonised initially by people navigating here and I have nothing against it but it doesn't really work on it's own

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="514164" data-time="1441663242">
<div>
The vast majority of the peak flag nonsense is driven by politics. Just another ill conceived attempt by the social media left in NZ to sabotage the process.
Firstly they whinged about the cost, then they whinged about the desire to change the flag at all, then they whinged about the final 4 options, then they whinged about the process.
It is now just a way that the left in NZ can justify the hypocrisy of their position, they campaigned on changing the flag... then they reliased John Key was going to do it.. so they strew a strop...now they want back in again... but with their own option.
 
Sorry fellas..
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
I know some of you are reading the nutjobs on Stuff as an indication of where opposition lies but my experince from those around me or friends or family is that it is overwhemingly those of a conservative bent that don't want change and were against it from the start.
It seems almost like the right wing nutjobs are keeping quiet and letting the left wing nutjobs do their arguing for them

taniwharugby

Can we vote to have no flag? Now that'd be better, do away with that worthless flag picker cult from our society!

The Silver Fern

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