Flag
-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="514168" data-time="1441664089"><p>Lets say the panel presented a black fern on a white background then the public feedback was overwhelming that people not only preffered but would vote for a white fern on black. The debate could be held about 'black flags' and whether we were happy to stand by any criticism and support it no matter what. That option could then be presented back to us in a referendum....<br> <br>Forget issues of ISIS. It has nothing to do with them. Traditionally black flags are a sign of aggression just as white flags are a sign of surrender. However, the counter argument is that lots of countries have white based flags and aren't surrendering. we can buck the 'tradition' and show that a black flag does not have to mean aggression.</p></blockquote> <br>Or alternatively that is exactly what the black flag represents and New Zealand will invade any other country that complains about our flag of aggression...<br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="514175" data-time="1441665235"><p>The only upside to this is seeing people finally showing some passion about it, shame it took so long.</p></blockquote>Agreed. From some distance away it seems to have not been managed as well as it could.<br><br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote"><p>Here's how the red peak originally polled <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.radiolive.co.nz/DUNCAN-GARNER-The-unpopular-truth-about-Red-Peak/tabid/615/articleID/97289/Default.aspx'>http://www.radiolive.co.nz/DUNCAN-GARNER-The-unpopular-truth-about-Red-Peak/tabid/615/articleID/97289/Default.aspx</a></p></blockquote><br>Duncan asks:<br><blockquote class="ipsBlockquote"><p>So I ask you this – where is this support for “Red Peakâ€
coming from? Or is it a campaign against the flag referendum, the process and the PM?</p></blockquote><br>Best not to look like a conspiracy kook Duncan. Perhaps the more obvious answer is people change their mind, get swayed by the arguments of others or people who weren't engaged much are now preferring that to the others? -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="514215" data-time="1441672784">
<div>
<p>Why didn't this fern flag even get into the top 39. Wasn't this the public's top choice</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Its a much better blue and the black takes up more space</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But the ferns a bit shit and needs work. But as an option to all black this is the best</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Mostly black and white (essential) but also some red and blue. And the colour scheme works</p>
<p> </p>
<p><img src="https://d22r54gnmuhwmk.cloudfront.net/photos/6/pq/bx/MwPQbxakGZZACSV-800x450-noPad.jpg" alt="MwPQbxakGZZACSV-800x450-noPad.jpg"></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Was it? It got posted on Tony Veitch's page but that doesn't make it the public's top choice. As I said earlier, poll data shows that the flag with the black and the blue around the other way was the most popular one of the 40.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mokey" data-cid="514144" data-time="1441659711">
<div>
<p>I'm not a fan of the peak at all. It's all very well to have paragraph after paragraph of explanation - this represents dawn, earth, southern alps blah blah blah, but that context will never be anywhere near the flagpole. Are we saying that dawn and earth and mountains are unique to NZ?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The fern is instantly recognisable as New Zealand. No paragraphs required. Saying a criteria is easily drawn, what a crock of shit (a fern is still much easier than the bird of paradise on the Papua New Guinea flag for example - instantly recognisable, don't hear them bitching about how hard it is to draw.)</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I agree. What % of New Zealanders go to the mountains? Most New Zealanders don't live in Wanaka or Arthur's Pass. I like mountains but I don't feel that they represent New Zealand. New Zealand is the only country in the world that could have a silver fern on its flag.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="514204" data-time="1441670901">
<div>
<p> </p>
<p>How do you know that changing our flag won't make change to our development? It can be funny how perceptions of a national sybol can affect how people think. Do potential new migrants look at our flag and think we are inexorably bound to the UK? Does this put them off or make them hesitant? Would showing that we are forging our own identity encourage investment?</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>If a country's flag ranks above stable economy, innovation, very low corruption, safety, no war, gun control, high level of schooling, welfare system, agreeable climate, fair labour laws, ACC, free public hospital system, readily available fresh food and water etc etc for a migrant then they are too fucking dumb to be allowed in New Zealand.</p> -
<p>there have been so many different polls with different flags in them form different sources, does anybody really know which are genuinely the 'publics fave' given I haven't voted in one yet either...seems almost like a concerted effort to muddy the waters considerably, even the RSA have suggested sabotaging the process, somewhat ironic given their reasons for doing it is for the fallen soldiers that fought for the flag, but didn't they also fight to allow their descendants democracy? </p>
-
I doubt any of our soldiers were silly enough to fight for a piece of cloth , a lot of the overseas war graves have a silver fern rather than our flag so that's a fairly specious argument on their part . <br><br>
One thing about the committee that apart from the glaring lack of flag designers is that it seemed like a decent cross section of people and I'm guessing political beliefs as well. It's the left that have politicised this , what a sad hateful bunch of people the hard left in this country are . -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Mokey" data-cid="514242" data-time="1441674916">
<div>
<p>If a country's flag ranks above stable economy, innovation, very low corruption, safety, no war, gun control, high level of schooling, welfare system, agreeable climate, fair labour laws, ACC, free public hospital system, readily available fresh food and water etc etc for a migrant then they are too fucking dumb to be allowed in New Zealand.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Why does everyone take every snippet of a concept written in this thread and turn it into an absolute?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>It was written as a POSSIBLE concept to counter a statement that changing the flag would NOT make any difference in the development of us as a nation. I even said "I don't know how much these possible intangibles affect our development but I also don't dismiss the possibility."</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="514254" data-time="1441675811">
<p>It's the left that have politicised this , what a sad hateful bunch of people the hard left <strike>in this country</strike> are .</p>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Fixed. <br>
</p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="514255" data-time="1441675929">
<p>Why does everyone take every snippet of a concept written in this thread and turn it into an absolute?</p>
</blockquote>
<br><p>We've not yet evolved to discuss nuances.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="514243" data-time="1441674921">
<div>
<p>there have been so many different polls with different flags in them form different sources, does anybody really know which are genuinely the 'publics fave' given I haven't voted in one yet either...seems almost like a concerted effort to muddy the waters considerably, even the RSA have suggested sabotaging the process, somewhat ironic given their reasons for doing it is for the fallen soldiers that fought for the flag, but didn't they also fight to allow their descendants democracy? </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>The UMR poll is the most comprehensive because it actually pits the new flags against the old flag. Most surveys have just asked questions like "do you want to change the flag?' That question doesn't tell you much because many people want to change the flag to some designs but not others. This flag referendum is 50/50.</p> -
<p>Also to put some perspective into the debate around whether National voters want a change or not:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>60% of National voters want a new flag</p>
<p>51% of Labour voters want a new flag</p>
<p>55% of Green voters want a new flag</p>
<p>60% of Maori want a new flag</p>
<p>30-44 slightly want to keep the flag, 60+ are split, 18-29 lean to a change and 45-60 vote 59% for change.</p> -
<p>Quite honestly I have no idea what the polls are trying to say. Just last night one News had a poll that quite clearly showed no appetite for a new flag, now I am hearing about other polls that show a more even split.</p>
-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="514239" data-time="1441674788"><p>I agree. What % of New Zealanders go to the mountains? Most New Zealanders don't live in Wanaka or Arthur's Pass. I like mountains but I don't feel that they represent New Zealand. New Zealand is the only country in the world that could have a silver fern on its flag.</p></blockquote>
I really don't get this kind of argument. Loads of NZers go to the mountains, there are more places than Wanaka or Arthur's Pass. But how does any lack of mountainous activity by NZers then relate to us what...ummm...growing ferns? Looking at ferns? Going to the ferns? The fern isn't unique to NZ either. <br><br>
Oh and I'm intrigued to hear the last post played on a triangle. -
<p>Silver fern is endemic to NZ, sacred to Maori, it's found on all three main islands, top-to-bottom, and has been employed as a symbol of NZ for over a century. It's the name of this website forum, it's relevance does not require argument.</p>
-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bones" data-cid="514298" data-time="1441693476"><p>I really don't get this kind of argument. Loads of NZers go to the mountains, there are more places than Wanaka or Arthur's Pass. But how does any lack of mountainous activity by NZers then relate to us what...ummm...growing ferns? Looking at ferns? Going to the ferns? The fern isn't unique to NZ either. <br>
Oh and I'm intrigued to hear the last post played on a triangle.</p></blockquote>
<br>
I think the story of how the Maori used to send out scouts to lay a trail of silver ferns silver side up so they could find their way to the pa who's arse they wanted to kick at night by the trail of ferns is pretty cool . Reminds me of this American colonial war flags with the snake on them . -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="red terror" data-cid="514299" data-time="1441693826">
<div>
<p>Silver fern is endemic to NZ, sacred to Maori, it's found on all three main islands, top-to-bottom, and has been employed as a symbol of NZ for over a century. It's the name of this website forum, it's relevance does not require argument.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>NZ does not have to do like Canada did though</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I much prefer SA's flag than Canada's (in fact I think Canada's flag is a bit shit in comparison).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But do you think NZ went a bit overboard with the fern. 3 out of 4 FFS. It mean NZers get no real choice. The vote on a new flag is a farce.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><img src="http://www.awepa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/SA-flag-face1.jpg" alt="SA-flag-face1.jpg"></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="JC" data-cid="514347" data-time="1441699792">
<div>
<p>How <em>did</em> SA choose its new flag? Genuinely interested.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Likewise. Because they ended up with a great outcome</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Seems a bit like NZ</p>
<p> </p>
<p>NZ now need to go the design studio route</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Just stop the referendum and start again. Only the red peak is close to the required standard. The final 4 are a joke</p>
<p> </p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
<p>Wikipedia</p>
<p> </p>
<p><span>1994 flag</span></p>
<div>
<div><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_South_African_flag_unveiling.jpg'><img height="155" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/New_South_African_flag_unveiling.jpg/220px-New_South_African_flag_unveiling.jpg" width="220" alt="220px-New_South_African_flag_unveiling.j"></a>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>South African Ambassador <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Schwarz' title="Harry Schwarz">Harry Schwarz</a> presenting the new flag to the president of the United States, <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton' title="Bill Clinton">Bill Clinton</a>, in May 1994.</div>
</div>
</div>
<p>The present South African national flag was first flown on 27 April 1994. However, the flag was first commissioned as an interim flag only, and was decided upon at the very last minute, barely making it onto the nation's flagpoles in time for the election.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The choice of a new flag was part of the negotiation process set in motion when <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela' title="Nelson Mandela">Nelson Mandela</a> was released from prison in 1990. When a nationwide public competition was held in 1993,<span style="color:#ff0000;"> the National Symbols Commission received more than 7,000 designs. Six designs were drawn up and presented to the public and the Negotiating Council, but none elicited enthusiastic support.</span> A number of design studios were contacted to submit further proposals, but they were again without success. <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_South_Africa' title="Parliament of South Africa">Parliament</a> went into <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recess_(motion)' title="Recess (motion)">recess</a> at the end of 1993 without a suitable candidate for the new national flag.</p>
<p>None of the flag designs submitted by the public were supported by the committee charged to select the final design.</p>
<p>In February 1994, <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_Ramaphosa' title="Cyril Ramaphosa">Cyril Ramaphosa</a> and <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roelf_Meyer' title="Roelf Meyer">Roelf Meyer</a>, chief negotiators of the <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_National_Congress' title="African National Congress">African National Congress</a> and the <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Party_(South_Africa)' title="National Party (South Africa)">National Party</a> government of the day respectively, were given the task of resolving the flag issue. A final design was adopted on 15 March 1994, derived from a design developed by State Herald <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Brownell' title="Frederick Brownell">Frederick Brownell</a>,<sup><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_South_Africa#cite_note-6'><span>[</span>6<span>]</span></a></sup> who had also designed the <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Namibia' title="Flag of Namibia">Flag of Namibia</a>. This interim flag was designed by Frederick Brownell for the 27 April elections, the nation's first fully inclusive elections, and for <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela' title="Nelson Mandela">Nelson Mandela</a>'s 10 May inauguration.</p>
<div>
<div><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pm_cricket_shots09_6058.jpg'><img height="147" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Pm_cricket_shots09_6058.jpg/220px-Pm_cricket_shots09_6058.jpg" width="220" alt="220px-Pm_cricket_shots09_6058.jpg"></a>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>The flag flying at the <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Cricket_Ground' title="Sydney Cricket Ground">Sydney Cricket Ground</a>.</div>
</div>
</div>
<p>The proclamation of the new national flag by <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_President' title="South African President">South African President</a> <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._W._de_Klerk' title="F. W. de Klerk">F. W. de Klerk</a> was only published on 20 April 1994,<sup><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_South_Africa#cite_note-proc-7'><span>[</span>7<span>]</span></a></sup> a mere seven days before the flag was to be inaugurated, sparking a frantic last-minute flurry for flag manufacturers. As stated in South Africa's post-apartheid interim constitution, the flag was to be introduced on an interim probationary period of five years, after which there would be discussion about whether or not to change the national flag in the <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_South_Africa' title="Constitution of South Africa">final draft of the constitution</a>. However, the flag was eventually very well received and was included in the final draft without much debate. Although the flag originally had mixed reception,<sup>[<i><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed' title="Wikipedia:Citation needed"><span>citation needed</span></a></i>]</sup> the interim version was made the final, national flag in the <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_South_Africa' title="Constitution of South Africa">South African Constitution</a>.</p>
<p> </p>
</blockquote>
