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taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="516429" data-time="1442465765">
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The key is the total logo is very different.
 
Peak would have no chance of suing and winning. Nil.
 
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So along with Vexology, being an Economist, you are now a Lawyer?
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="516434" data-time="1442467063">
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I think the Red Peak flag is shit but bringing up Peak Engineering as if it's a blatant copy is silly.
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It was a tongue in cheek comment...guess not having the smilie didnt help.

MajorRage

I have to admit that i'm coming around to theory that the wrong flags are on the referendum. 
 
The black and white fern should be on there.

Winger

Garage Project brewery producing Red Peak beer
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/72184848/garage-project-brewery-producing-red-peak-beer'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/72184848/garage-project-brewery-producing-red-peak-beer</a>
 
 
<img src="http://www.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/6/z/6/6/j/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.620x349.16z66o.png/1442544418541.jpg" alt="1442544418541.jpg">
 
Garage Project had brewed beer in the past using hot volcanic rocks to flash caramelise beer using an ancient technique and that was something they were keen to try again as a nod to New Zealand's volcanic landscape, he said.
"We'll definitely be looking to incorporate an element of that."
Native horopito bush pepper and kawakawa had been used in past Garage Project beers, which could also be incorporated into Red Peak, he said.
"There's potentially some really interesting things we could do around an additional New Zealand spice or flavour."
He said they would also try get an element of ice or snow into the mix.
The beer would probably be a red ale or red based beer, he said.
Red Peak would be brewed in either a 1000 litre or 2500 litre tank and sold in 650ml bottles to begin with and maybe cans later.
"We've already had a number of calls from our retail partners and shops and bars asking when they can get it."
Like many Garage Project beers It was not known how long Red Peak would stick around for.
"We'll just go into this with open minds and see what the response is."
The Red Peak beer concept had proven popular on Facebook, with a photo of it attracting more than 700 likes and being shared nearly 150 times.
Wellington man Robb Watson immediately took advantage of a great pun opportunity in commenting on the post.
"Bottles? Shouldn't this design be on a...flagon?"

jegga

Hipster beer wankery with a bad pun at the end . Not really helping the cause I think

Winger

Grant McLachlan: The flag process is not New Zealand Idol
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11514705'>http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11514705</a>
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
Steven Joyce's former private secretary should never have been selected as the senior advisor to the panel. The Director of the New Zealand Flag Project, Kylie Archer, also has a CV that raises too many questions. Were John Key's public statements during the process the result of information leaked from panel meetings?
 
Celebrity is not a substitute for expertise. Matt Holmes, the Nike designer formerly from Fisher & Paykel, has no experience or skills relevant to flag design (vexillology). In fact, none of the advisory group did.
 
For a national flag, the advisory group should have drawn on the expertise of several vexillologists. Fiji did.
Two leading vexillologists told me that they offered the government advice but were turned away. Several at the recent world congress of vexillologists shared similar stories.
 
What we've seen are celebrity panel members choosing celebrity advisors selecting celebrity designers' designs.
Of the 10,000+ entries, it seems more than a coincidence that Kyle Lockwood, Sven Baker, Andrew Fyfe, Otis Frizell and Alofi Kanter all had multiple designs that made the long-list of 40. Considering that Sven Baker's designs were so different - and most were of little national resonance - perceived bias is an obvious concern.
To avoid any perceived bias, the names of designers should have been hidden from those assessing designs. Wine and food judging applies the same principle.
 
Judging an idea based on the designer rather than the quality of its content is an affront to our egalitarian heritage and has no place in the process to decide a national flag. Steven Joyce has attacked me rather than the facts I've raised , which demonstrates my point.
 
When so much celebrity was used, it reminds me of a magician's use of a beautiful assistant as a diversion. When Bill English said that social media had a huge role, were the panel a diversion? Were the results pre-determined? Was the koru flag design in the final four, as Mike Hosking suggested, "A sop?"
 
Everything the National Party has done around the flag debate is dodgy. Since Lewis Holden took over the "Change the Flag" campaign after Lloyd Morrison's death, he became a National Party candidate for Rimutaka and guided his campaign away from Lloyd's preference for a silver fern on a black background and towards Kyle Lockwood's designs - which coincides with John Key and David Farrar's positioning.
 
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
The Secretary of the Flag Consideration Panel stalled the release of information I requested under the Official Information Act until after the date that the referendum is announced. I have therefore lodged a complaint with the Ombudsman.
I could apply for an injunction on the referendum until I have the information requested. I could then apply for a judicial review, which could delay the referendum for a year.
There is nothing wrong with the flag legislation. The Flag Consideration Panel were just an advisory body and it is the Executive who chose the four designs for the first referendum and the dates of the two referenda.
The cross-party flag committee appointed the panel but it was their methods that created this mess. The committee can call for a board of inquiry of judges and vexillologists to clean it up.
What they should do is start the assessment process again, call for submissions on the existing submitted designs, and assess all designs properly and objectively.
Any other 'solution' won't work. Simply asking a QC for a legal opinion reeks of whitewash. Adding a design to the referendum reeks of political interference.
In the meantime, the first referendum should be delayed until March. Considering that most polls show that none of the final four designs are good enough to defeat the current flag, National's pollster shouldn't object to that.
 
</blockquote>
 
 
And some of the rejected flags were 1st rate
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/08/11/dear-new-zealand-please-reconsider-these-9-rejected-flag-designs/'>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/08/11/dear-new-zealand-please-reconsider-these-9-rejected-flag-designs/</a>

Winger

And a good fern option
 
I still prefer Red Peak but if a fern this would do
 
(The more I look at the final 3 ferns the more I hate them)
 
<img src="https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTSOQUoCYAAXOcR.jpg" alt="BTSOQUoCYAAXOcR.jpg">

Rembrandt

yep Id vote for that fern

Unco

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="516438" data-time="1442468937">
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Bad choices the govt have made? Like what? The only poor choices I have seen are from opposition parties and individuals who want to whinge and bitch from the sidelines and look for ANY excuse to do so.
I am over this petty narrative that the govt has somehow botched the process, which holds up to zero scrutiny. The process is hassle because we are bombarded with the views of a negative vocal minority. That would have happened regardless of the process,.... because John Key is PM and some cannot handle that.
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What have the opposition parties got to do with what I said? I clearly said I think Red Peak's a shit flag, so I'm obviously not a fan of Little championing it and getting into childish squabbles with Key. My problem is that the other four flags aren't much better, so unless you're suddenly going to claim that this entire process wasn't John Key's idea, yeah, that's on the bloody government.
 
If you want to vote for one of those four flags, go ahead, I'm not stopping you. But I don't think any of them have any chance of winning, so this entire process seems like a giant waste of time to me.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="516722" data-time="1442568776">
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Grant McLachlan: The flag process is not New Zealand Idol
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11514705'>http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11514705</a>
 
 
 
 
And some of the rejected flags were 1st rate
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/08/11/dear-new-zealand-please-reconsider-these-9-rejected-flag-designs/'>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/08/11/dear-new-zealand-please-reconsider-these-9-rejected-flag-designs/</a>
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Most of them were awful, I didn't realise Kyle Lockwood had done so many variations . One of his simpler versions of the fern looks better than the one they ended up choosing though.

taniwharugby

you need to be able to make out the difference between opinion and fact Winger.

Winger

Going to the rugby and to various pubs that have the NZ flags flying or displayed
 
The current NZ flag is awful. It must be replaced at some point
 
But none of the 4 are even close to being acceptable. So if Red Peak is not added I will not vote in the first one and vote to keep the current flag in the 2nd

taniwharugby

do you also refrain from voting in local elections, national elections or whatever when there are no suitable candidates?

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="518372" data-time="1442824022">
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do you also refrain from voting in local elections, national elections or whatever when there are no suitable candidates?
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I don't think I'd bother to vote if their were no suitable candidates (or parties for national elections) and I'm likely not going to vote in the flag debate because there aren't any suitable candidates for me.

red terror

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="518339" data-time="1442819983">
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The current NZ flag is awful. It must be replaced at some point
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It's boring and unimaginative, but I certainly don't hate it. I've got one hanging. Problem is, most people where I live don't recognize it, they think it's Australian.
 
Some background into the evolution of my own thinking...
 
About 15 years ago I began seeing Kiwi-supporters in the Toronto region attending sports, arts & culture events carrying the silver fern flag to identify their pride & support. That's where it was effectively communicated to me -- it's the defacto flag.
 
Not to go too off-topic here, but around the same time I was doing a photo project in some archeological digs in an old battlefield near Louisbourg. It was a colony of New France and was the site of a fateful battle where Britain kicked-off their "Conquest."
 
What was of interest to me were 18th-century administrators in France who selected a different site at a location called Ste Anne's (and for you Northlanders out there, you might like to know that location (a century later) was where the pioneers of Waipu who chopped most of the Kauri emigrated from, but I digress...) which was almost a day's boat sail away from Louisbourg.
 
The Versailles crown/government of the day chose Ste Anne's, but the people --the fishermen, the working men, the merchants -- they all headed to Louisbourg and set up shop there, because it was hours closer to the fishing grounds and the harbour was (almost) permanently ice-free. They chose their preference, voting with their feet. Administrators in Paris told 'em, "you have to go back, to the city we're building for you" (loose translation) but the people wouldn't have any of it, so eventually the French authorities capitulated to the will of the people and planted the flag where they wanted to live. Significantly, they didn't then draw up a shortlist of new locations that omitted Louisbourg. They went straight to the people's choice.
 
I was thinking a lot about this in 2003, concurrent with my project, I was covering the Maori tour to Canada. The fans came with their silver fern banner. Now, that might be a confirmation bias, being it was the official Maori team, fern on their chest. I get that. Just note I saw few-if-any official NZ flags, and saw probably a hundred silver fern flags. Made me think of the fishermen in Lousibourg who voted against their government's design-plan and picked their own.
 
Same thing with "magical" religious sites... Lourdes, Fatima, St. Anne de Beaupre... the Catholic church couldn't fight those myths & legends, the people there believed the power of the mystical and miracle at these locations. So the church absorbed and co-opted the sites into their own orthodoxy. What they didn't do at, say, Lourdes, was to set up a poll of four different sites that resembled a little bit like Lourdes and call it "spiritual" and ask people to choose one. The people would have rebelled against the very idiocy of the idea. The church erected a cross on those sites and sanctified it.
 
That's been my impression for over a decade. People have spoken with the banner they used to identify themselves. Sanctify the silver fern flag and make it official.
 
Just one person's $0.02 anecdote and rationale. Apologies for being long-winded and being only tangentially relevant.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="518413" data-time="1442828314">I don't think I'd bother to vote if their were no suitable candidates (or parties for national elections) and I'm likely not going to vote in the flag debate because there aren't any suitable candidates for me.</blockquote>
 
And that is your choice, but then you should also refrain from complaining about the Govt. that gets in...it was like the last election, so many didn't exercise their right to vote, and I'd wager a fair number of these are the ones who are on social media every day bitching about anything and everything they can to do with the govt.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="517000" data-time="1442609153">
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What have the opposition parties got to do with what I said? I clearly said I think Red Peak's a shit flag, so I'm obviously not a fan of Little championing it and getting into childish squabbles with Key. My problem is that the other four flags aren't much better, so unless you're suddenly going to claim that this entire process wasn't John Key's idea, yeah, that's on the bloody government.
 
If you want to vote for one of those four flags, go ahead, I'm not stopping you. But I don't think any of them have any chance of winning, so this entire process seems like a giant waste of time to me.
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Nope. You have used a lot of words and still not actually said what is wrong with the process.

Crazy Horse

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="518501" data-time="1442861287">
And that is your choice, but then you should also refrain from complaining about the Govt. that gets in...it was like the last election, so many didn't exercise their right to vote, and I'd wager a fair number of these are the ones who are on social media every day bitching about anything and everything they can to do with the govt.</blockquote>
 
You can complain about the govt as much as you like if the reason you didn't vote was the lack of suitable options. It's like being made to choose between white, off white, ivory and cream when what you really want is blue.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="518501" data-time="1442861287">
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And that is your choice, but then you should also refrain from complaining about the Govt. that gets in...it was like the last election, so many didn't exercise their right to vote, and I'd wager a fair number of these are the ones who are on social media every day bitching about anything and everything they can to do with the govt.
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I don't necessarily agree with that - maybe if we have a No Confidence on the voting form - if I don't think any of the candidates are up to it why should that bar me from complaining about the ones who got in? Why would my complaints be more valid if I went in and ticked the Ben and Jono Party 'just' as a vote to allow me to 'complain'?
 
That's almost Australian style democracy where they force you to vote and fine you (which escalates) if you don't. ;)

Crucial

The argument of "didn't vote, can't complain" only holds water for people who couldn't be bothered to vote with no real reason why. 
I don't see why I should be forced to give my mandate to the least worst of a bunch of idiots in order to still have an opinion. 
I heard someone from the electoral office before the last election say that they record spoiled votes and if you want to show no confidence just put a line through everyone.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="518565" data-time="1442882640">
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I don't necessarily agree with that - maybe if we have a No Confidence on the voting form - if I don't think any of the candidates are up to it why should that bar me from complaining about the ones who got in? Why would my complaints be more valid if I went in and ticked the Ben and Jono Party 'just' as a vote to allow me to 'complain'?
 
That's almost Australian style democracy where they force you to vote and fine you (which escalates) if you don't. ;)
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</blockquote>
 
That's democracy?

The Silver Fern

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