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Unco

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="516438" data-time="1442468937">
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Bad choices the govt have made? Like what? The only poor choices I have seen are from opposition parties and individuals who want to whinge and bitch from the sidelines and look for ANY excuse to do so.
I am over this petty narrative that the govt has somehow botched the process, which holds up to zero scrutiny. The process is hassle because we are bombarded with the views of a negative vocal minority. That would have happened regardless of the process,.... because John Key is PM and some cannot handle that.
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What have the opposition parties got to do with what I said? I clearly said I think Red Peak's a shit flag, so I'm obviously not a fan of Little championing it and getting into childish squabbles with Key. My problem is that the other four flags aren't much better, so unless you're suddenly going to claim that this entire process wasn't John Key's idea, yeah, that's on the bloody government.
 
If you want to vote for one of those four flags, go ahead, I'm not stopping you. But I don't think any of them have any chance of winning, so this entire process seems like a giant waste of time to me.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="516722" data-time="1442568776">
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Grant McLachlan: The flag process is not New Zealand Idol
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11514705'>http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11514705</a>
 
 
 
 
And some of the rejected flags were 1st rate
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/08/11/dear-new-zealand-please-reconsider-these-9-rejected-flag-designs/'>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/08/11/dear-new-zealand-please-reconsider-these-9-rejected-flag-designs/</a>
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Most of them were awful, I didn't realise Kyle Lockwood had done so many variations . One of his simpler versions of the fern looks better than the one they ended up choosing though.

taniwharugby

you need to be able to make out the difference between opinion and fact Winger.

Winger

Going to the rugby and to various pubs that have the NZ flags flying or displayed
 
The current NZ flag is awful. It must be replaced at some point
 
But none of the 4 are even close to being acceptable. So if Red Peak is not added I will not vote in the first one and vote to keep the current flag in the 2nd

taniwharugby

do you also refrain from voting in local elections, national elections or whatever when there are no suitable candidates?

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="518372" data-time="1442824022">
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do you also refrain from voting in local elections, national elections or whatever when there are no suitable candidates?
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I don't think I'd bother to vote if their were no suitable candidates (or parties for national elections) and I'm likely not going to vote in the flag debate because there aren't any suitable candidates for me.

red terror

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Winger" data-cid="518339" data-time="1442819983">
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The current NZ flag is awful. It must be replaced at some point
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It's boring and unimaginative, but I certainly don't hate it. I've got one hanging. Problem is, most people where I live don't recognize it, they think it's Australian.
 
Some background into the evolution of my own thinking...
 
About 15 years ago I began seeing Kiwi-supporters in the Toronto region attending sports, arts & culture events carrying the silver fern flag to identify their pride & support. That's where it was effectively communicated to me -- it's the defacto flag.
 
Not to go too off-topic here, but around the same time I was doing a photo project in some archeological digs in an old battlefield near Louisbourg. It was a colony of New France and was the site of a fateful battle where Britain kicked-off their "Conquest."
 
What was of interest to me were 18th-century administrators in France who selected a different site at a location called Ste Anne's (and for you Northlanders out there, you might like to know that location (a century later) was where the pioneers of Waipu who chopped most of the Kauri emigrated from, but I digress...) which was almost a day's boat sail away from Louisbourg.
 
The Versailles crown/government of the day chose Ste Anne's, but the people --the fishermen, the working men, the merchants -- they all headed to Louisbourg and set up shop there, because it was hours closer to the fishing grounds and the harbour was (almost) permanently ice-free. They chose their preference, voting with their feet. Administrators in Paris told 'em, "you have to go back, to the city we're building for you" (loose translation) but the people wouldn't have any of it, so eventually the French authorities capitulated to the will of the people and planted the flag where they wanted to live. Significantly, they didn't then draw up a shortlist of new locations that omitted Louisbourg. They went straight to the people's choice.
 
I was thinking a lot about this in 2003, concurrent with my project, I was covering the Maori tour to Canada. The fans came with their silver fern banner. Now, that might be a confirmation bias, being it was the official Maori team, fern on their chest. I get that. Just note I saw few-if-any official NZ flags, and saw probably a hundred silver fern flags. Made me think of the fishermen in Lousibourg who voted against their government's design-plan and picked their own.
 
Same thing with "magical" religious sites... Lourdes, Fatima, St. Anne de Beaupre... the Catholic church couldn't fight those myths & legends, the people there believed the power of the mystical and miracle at these locations. So the church absorbed and co-opted the sites into their own orthodoxy. What they didn't do at, say, Lourdes, was to set up a poll of four different sites that resembled a little bit like Lourdes and call it "spiritual" and ask people to choose one. The people would have rebelled against the very idiocy of the idea. The church erected a cross on those sites and sanctified it.
 
That's been my impression for over a decade. People have spoken with the banner they used to identify themselves. Sanctify the silver fern flag and make it official.
 
Just one person's $0.02 anecdote and rationale. Apologies for being long-winded and being only tangentially relevant.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="518413" data-time="1442828314">I don't think I'd bother to vote if their were no suitable candidates (or parties for national elections) and I'm likely not going to vote in the flag debate because there aren't any suitable candidates for me.</blockquote>
 
And that is your choice, but then you should also refrain from complaining about the Govt. that gets in...it was like the last election, so many didn't exercise their right to vote, and I'd wager a fair number of these are the ones who are on social media every day bitching about anything and everything they can to do with the govt.

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Unco" data-cid="517000" data-time="1442609153">
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What have the opposition parties got to do with what I said? I clearly said I think Red Peak's a shit flag, so I'm obviously not a fan of Little championing it and getting into childish squabbles with Key. My problem is that the other four flags aren't much better, so unless you're suddenly going to claim that this entire process wasn't John Key's idea, yeah, that's on the bloody government.
 
If you want to vote for one of those four flags, go ahead, I'm not stopping you. But I don't think any of them have any chance of winning, so this entire process seems like a giant waste of time to me.
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Nope. You have used a lot of words and still not actually said what is wrong with the process.

Crazy Horse

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="518501" data-time="1442861287">
And that is your choice, but then you should also refrain from complaining about the Govt. that gets in...it was like the last election, so many didn't exercise their right to vote, and I'd wager a fair number of these are the ones who are on social media every day bitching about anything and everything they can to do with the govt.</blockquote>
 
You can complain about the govt as much as you like if the reason you didn't vote was the lack of suitable options. It's like being made to choose between white, off white, ivory and cream when what you really want is blue.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="518501" data-time="1442861287">
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And that is your choice, but then you should also refrain from complaining about the Govt. that gets in...it was like the last election, so many didn't exercise their right to vote, and I'd wager a fair number of these are the ones who are on social media every day bitching about anything and everything they can to do with the govt.
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I don't necessarily agree with that - maybe if we have a No Confidence on the voting form - if I don't think any of the candidates are up to it why should that bar me from complaining about the ones who got in? Why would my complaints be more valid if I went in and ticked the Ben and Jono Party 'just' as a vote to allow me to 'complain'?
 
That's almost Australian style democracy where they force you to vote and fine you (which escalates) if you don't. ;)

Crucial

The argument of "didn't vote, can't complain" only holds water for people who couldn't be bothered to vote with no real reason why. 
I don't see why I should be forced to give my mandate to the least worst of a bunch of idiots in order to still have an opinion. 
I heard someone from the electoral office before the last election say that they record spoiled votes and if you want to show no confidence just put a line through everyone.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="518565" data-time="1442882640">
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I don't necessarily agree with that - maybe if we have a No Confidence on the voting form - if I don't think any of the candidates are up to it why should that bar me from complaining about the ones who got in? Why would my complaints be more valid if I went in and ticked the Ben and Jono Party 'just' as a vote to allow me to 'complain'?
 
That's almost Australian style democracy where they force you to vote and fine you (which escalates) if you don't. ;)
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That's democracy?

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="518580" data-time="1442886009">
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The argument of "didn't vote, can't complain" only holds water for people who couldn't be bothered to vote with no real reason why. 
I don't see why I should be forced to give my mandate to the least worst of a bunch of idiots in order to still have an opinion.
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taniwharugby

so if you choose not to vote, it gives you a bigger soap box?
 
Granted picking best of worst isn't ideal, I mean when my kids ask which is my favorite, I can hardly tell them neither are :)...if all those who don't vote, all feel that way (as opposed to the ones who cant be bothered) surely the best way to make change is for them to be involved and look to change.
 
I guess it is no different to the RSA wanting people to vote strategically, by voting for the worst option, thus if it wins even the 'pro-change' people will want to keep the original.

No Quarter

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/72334191/flag-debate-red-peak-may-be-included-on-ballot'>http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/72334191/flag-debate-red-peak-may-be-included-on-ballot</a>
 
Fuck sakes don't include Red Peak corporate logo, include a Silver Fern on a black background.
 
Grrrr.

JK

Grrr indeed
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11517757'>http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11517757</a>

taniwharugby

I guess it will call the bluff of some of those who claimed it was their preferred option, when they were possibly just being a bit mischievious!
 
I wonder if social media can get a 6th flag added? Maybe we should petition for the black flag with the silver fern!

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="taniwharugby" data-cid="518927" data-time="1442980080">
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I guess it will call the bluff of some of those who claimed it was their preferred option, when they were possibly just being a bit mischievious!
 
I wonder if social media can get a 6th flag added? Maybe we should petition for the black flag with the silver fern!
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I'll be all in for that. I might aim to do some Winger level fluffing if it means we get what should be the only option really.

No Quarter

I will vote for the lesser of 5 evils in the first referendum. Struggling to decide which though. I've ruled out red peak, the red and blue fern/cross and the black and white silver fern. So deciding between the black and blue fern/cross and the Koru.
 
Might go with the Koru as it is a nice simple design. Lockwoods design's are too busy and the ferns look like feathers.
 
Then I will probably vote to keep the current flag.

The Silver Fern

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