RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1)
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Having just watched it again, I still think people are underestimating how good a coaching masterclass this was by Eddie Jones.
I’m sure Eddie would have been a very happy man when the All Black team was announced on Thursday. The All Blacks went for size, indicating they expected England to play tight. The old story being that the English can only play 10 man rugby and hence that is what we expected them to do.
Then the early stages of the game, the All Blacks went for a defensive alignment that suggested they expected England to box kick. There are two standard defensive formations the All Blacks have played with this year. One with Mo’unga as a 2nd fullback / blind wing and one with him defending at 13. When he defends at 13, Bridge or Barrett is typically back for the box kick. It’s a defensive scheme that the Crusaders use a lot. It means if the kick does come, Mo’unga can drop back into the wider channels.
Eddie having planned for the above then decides to play a wide gameplan. This catches the All Blacks off guard. Jon Preston used this play below to say they were targeting Mo’unga. This is a little while after he got beaten by Daly on the outside. Mo’unga and Bridge are caught in a 4 on 2 so go into a drift defense. Savea comes across the English make ground on the inside with Aaron Smith well out of position for his sweeper. The key for the English was quick ruck ball. Look at the 8 All Blacks on the other side of the ruck marking three Englishman.
A few minutes later they find space on the other side of the field. Again a 4 on 2, in this instance Reece makes a gamble rushes at and stops it. They did this routinely in the first half. Preston at half time said their formation was set at targeting Mo’unga. Whilst they did try to stand him up one on one a few times, their structure seemed in my view designed to move around our slow forward pack. When you watch the breakdowns prior to these overlaps, the English 6 and 7 were dominating. Putting Cane on the bench was a big error.
The English could have scored a lot more points in the first half but finishing let them down. Also numbers 11-14 for the All Blacks scrambled really well in difficult situations.
The other thing that stood out in the first half was the interplay of the English forwards, from 1 to 8 the offloading and the skills were superb. It created go forward and kept the play alive. Read and Retallick topped the missed tackle count and the All Blacks pack couldn’t match the pace or the intensity.
When the All Blacks got the ball the English defence was incredibly well prepared. They knew the All Blacks patterns well. Mo’unga and Barrett both played terribly mainly because the English knew what they were going to do. Take the Barrett intercept for example. There is only one place the ball is going. Tuilagi rushes up and takes the option away (also, he was well onside). Tuilagi was huge on defence.
There were multiple situations in the first half where the outside rush took away the support play and Barrett or Mo’unga had to hold it. This was usually followed by a poor kick.
In the 2nd half the All Blacks looked to play with more depth but the English targeted the established forward pods. Here’s Tuilagi again rushing up on Retallick and killing a large overlap.
Here, Underhill lines up Read. They knew exactly who to target. Underhill was superb, possibly the best performance I’ve ever seen from an English 7.
The All Blacks could not get into the game at all. Eddie had a plan for everything, right down to when Jordie Barrett came on for Bridge. The very first play he was on, they put up a high ball, he didn’t attack it and Itoje recovered. The kick came from an odd position after a kickoff too so you could tell it was a set plan.Overall, the All Blacks were out-thought and out-played. The biggest difference was the skills and the pace of the English pack. Itoje was my man of the match but Lawes was great, Sinckler has matured into a allround player, and the Kamikaze kids are fast, strong and smart. Eddie Jones has done a phenomenal job. Also, so has John Mitchell.
Which brings me to the next All Black coach, whoever gets the job is in for a tough task. We can argue about back selections as much as we want but forward depth in New Zealand is poor. When was the last time we got truly excited about a tight forward prospect coming through? The reality is Franks hung on for a few years because no-one was sticking up their hand and if Angus Ta’avao is the answer I’m not sure what the question is. There have a been a few age group stars that have faded (Akira Ioane, Aumua) but no-one is really challenging for a spot. No 6 or 8 has been consistent and that led to playing 2 sevens. We lack good ball runners and the interplay and the offloading we saw from the English pack was non-existent from the All Blacks.
Well done England and well done Eddie Jones.
Edit: Sorry for the crap photos
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Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
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Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
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@SammyC said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
No concerns with that loss. We were outplayed and Eddie Jones did his thing.
Never got the criticism of Itoje because he’s played like this before. Well done that man.
Look forward to seeing the ABs one more time against the Boks.
The criticism of Itoje is NZ rugby fan arrogance at its best.
I think it has been deserved previously.
... perhaps not now ...
@booboo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@SammyC said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
No concerns with that loss. We were outplayed and Eddie Jones did his thing.
Never got the criticism of Itoje because he’s played like this before. Well done that man.
Look forward to seeing the ABs one more time against the Boks.
The criticism of Itoje is NZ rugby fan arrogance at its best.
I think it has been deserved previously.
... perhaps not now ...
Itoje has been playing well for a while now.
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Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
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Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
@cgrant Mo’unga’s missed tackle on the right side was poor. Daly got stopped just after. It was when England shifted the ball to the left wing and Retallick missed a tackle Was equally bad.
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@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
@Damo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
We were fuck all mate. At no time did I think we were in the game. Ssdly
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@Damo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
We were fuck all mate. At no time did I think we were in the game. Ssdly
@canefan said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@Damo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
We were fuck all mate. At no time did I think we were in the game. Ssdly
Yeah but we have won games like that plenty of times in the past.
In SA last year for instance when we were rubbish for 60 minutes and stole it in the final 20.
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@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
@Damo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
I agree with that. We had moments and given the score hadn’t blown out, we just need to take those moments to build towards our end.
What makes that play worse was that Owens had blown the penalty and Whitelock went in after the whistle to get the ball out. Farrell was still into after the whistle. The rest is history as they say.
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@booboo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@SammyC said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
No concerns with that loss. We were outplayed and Eddie Jones did his thing.
Never got the criticism of Itoje because he’s played like this before. Well done that man.
Look forward to seeing the ABs one more time against the Boks.
The criticism of Itoje is NZ rugby fan arrogance at its best.
I think it has been deserved previously.
... perhaps not now ...
Itoje has been playing well for a while now.
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@booboo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@SammyC said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
No concerns with that loss. We were outplayed and Eddie Jones did his thing.
Never got the criticism of Itoje because he’s played like this before. Well done that man.
Look forward to seeing the ABs one more time against the Boks.
The criticism of Itoje is NZ rugby fan arrogance at its best.
I think it has been deserved previously.
... perhaps not now ...
Itoje has been playing well for a while now.
Yeah, I'll begrudgingly admit he had a top game against us at Twickers.
Don't watch any other England games so can't comment beyond that.
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Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
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@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@booboo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@SammyC said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
No concerns with that loss. We were outplayed and Eddie Jones did his thing.
Never got the criticism of Itoje because he’s played like this before. Well done that man.
Look forward to seeing the ABs one more time against the Boks.
The criticism of Itoje is NZ rugby fan arrogance at its best.
I think it has been deserved previously.
... perhaps not now ...
Itoje has been playing well for a while now.
Yeah, I'll begrudgingly admit he had a top game against us at Twickers.
Don't watch any other England games so can't comment beyond that.
@booboo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@booboo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@SammyC said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
No concerns with that loss. We were outplayed and Eddie Jones did his thing.
Never got the criticism of Itoje because he’s played like this before. Well done that man.
Look forward to seeing the ABs one more time against the Boks.
The criticism of Itoje is NZ rugby fan arrogance at its best.
I think it has been deserved previously.
... perhaps not now ...
Itoje has been playing well for a while now.
Yeah, I'll begrudgingly admit he had a top game against us at Twickers.
Don't watch any other England games so can't comment beyond that.
No, I’ll politely disagree with that one - was completely outplayed by the Retallick that day and was a key component of a disintegrating lineout which cost England the match that day
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@canefan said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@Damo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
We were fuck all mate. At no time did I think we were in the game. Ssdly
Yeah but we have won games like that plenty of times in the past.
In SA last year for instance when we were rubbish for 60 minutes and stole it in the final 20.
@Damo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@canefan said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@Damo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
We were fuck all mate. At no time did I think we were in the game. Ssdly
Yeah but we have won games like that plenty of times in the past.
In SA last year for instance when we were rubbish for 60 minutes and stole it in the final 20.
Your head can spin thinking about the what ifs , we had key moments but I guess England had moments too where they had to settle for 3s instead of tries. The most painful one for me is the set piece at lineout time falling apart, we would have prepared for that, our locks should have had parity and we still had options with Read and Barrett. As painful as it was it’s hard to imagine England not being the number 1 team at the moment with ABs not far behind. There will be some forced changes next year but I don’t think a huge change of course is necessary for ABs. Hopefully exodus of core group will be limited because that is probably the biggest obstacle to success going forward.
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@Damo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
I agree with that. We had moments and given the score hadn’t blown out, we just need to take those moments to build towards our end.
What makes that play worse was that Owens had blown the penalty and Whitelock went in after the whistle to get the ball out. Farrell was still into after the whistle. The rest is history as they say.
@ACT-Crusader said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@Damo said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
@cgrant said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
Crucial moments :
- The missed tackle on Daly. It gave England a big momentum, they scored and then on, they never looked back. This first try gave them the confidence they needed.
- Retallick's missed pass. Had the ball reached Savea, NZ would have scored. At 7-all, this might have forced England to play a tighter game for which the All Blacks were prepared. Instead, the All Blacks lost their collective cohesion, with players trying to change the facet of the game on their own. Accordingly, England's confidence grew even higher.
The reversal of PK against Whitelock was the key moment for me.
We were just starting to get into the game. We could have had a lineout 10m out from the line, 9 points down and about 20 minutes to go. Instead we lost the ball and 30 metres. Honestly I feel we would have been a chance at a memorable comeback had we kept that PK.
I agree with that. We had moments and given the score hadn’t blown out, we just need to take those moments to build towards our end.
What makes that play worse was that Owens had blown the penalty and Whitelock went in after the whistle to get the ball out. Farrell was still into after the whistle. The rest is history as they say.
Unnecessary and dumb by Whitelock.
But geez Farrell milked it like he was a Premier League soccer player.
He is a really talented rugby player. But stuff like that just reinforces my intense dislike for him on a rugby pitch. -
All Blacks plunge after the ineptitude in Yokohama to their lowest ever position in the World Rugby rankings:
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All Blacks plunge after the ineptitude in Yokohama to their lowest ever position in the World Rugby rankings:
@sparky meh. If you care about that sort of thing, rest assured it is a very short-lived dip.
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I know that Beuden has a lot of pace. And Jordie isn't a slouch.
But does anyone have any insight to Scott Barrett's speed?There is a moment in the first half where Tuilagi intercepts and England get Johhny May into space out wide. Only cover defence is Scott Barrett. He has the angle to work with, but I would have bet the house that May takes him on the outside for a sure England try.
But Barrett shuts him down and forces him inside. England knock on. Try saved.
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I know that Beuden has a lot of pace. And Jordie isn't a slouch.
But does anyone have any insight to Scott Barrett's speed?There is a moment in the first half where Tuilagi intercepts and England get Johhny May into space out wide. Only cover defence is Scott Barrett. He has the angle to work with, but I would have bet the house that May takes him on the outside for a sure England try.
But Barrett shuts him down and forces him inside. England knock on. Try saved.
@Billy-Webb it was an odd moment indeed. Barrett didn't look to have a headstart at all either so got to think May was just struggling to unwind. Red was putting his all out there I thought, a guy fighting the best he could knowing he only had 40 minutes. Desperation versing constriction.
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I know that Beuden has a lot of pace. And Jordie isn't a slouch.
But does anyone have any insight to Scott Barrett's speed?There is a moment in the first half where Tuilagi intercepts and England get Johhny May into space out wide. Only cover defence is Scott Barrett. He has the angle to work with, but I would have bet the house that May takes him on the outside for a sure England try.
But Barrett shuts him down and forces him inside. England knock on. Try saved.
@Billy-Webb said in RWC: England v New Zealand (SF1):
I know that Beuden has a lot of pace. And Jordie isn't a slouch.
But does anyone have any insight to Scott Barrett's speed?There is a moment in the first half where Tuilagi intercepts and England get Johhny May into space out wide. Only cover defence is Scott Barrett. He has the angle to work with, but I would have bet the house that May takes him on the outside for a sure England try.
But Barrett shuts him down and forces him inside. England knock on. Try saved.
May was an injury doubt before the semi final. He clearly wasn't fully fit as he demonstrated in the moment you referenced. There's no way a 100% May couldn't outsprint Scott Barrett.
