Grace Millane

[Snowy]

@Bones I didn't search hard enough for an Asian heritage dentist torturing someone so that had to do. I do concur with his sentiment about the killer though.

[Crucial]

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

I actually think they sound very much like panic. Not frantic panic but someone trying to process and deal with a fucked situation while covering up for themselves.
The disposal, the cleaning, the setting up another date.....
The questions for me are around the time between the act (presumably not an overly long time after they went back to his) and the internet searching.
He reckons he passed out in the shower. Now, if he/they were so pissed that he was at the point of passing out, how on earth does he claim consent to a dangerous sex act, and how does he know clearly that it happened.
Or did he get carried away, it all went wrong and he freaked out for a while.
What are the other scenarios here that would be murder?
He got overly freaky against her will? No sign of fighting back from her (at least not presented yet)
He got freaky on her while she was passed out? Don't get why you would try and enhance pleasure on someone that was out of it.
He subdued her while asleep, then had his way? That could use up a lot of the time gap.

Other question is motive. If this was deliberate then it was spur of the moment deliberate after being presented with an opportunity to carry out a fantasy. All the 'planning' was done afterwards and not very well.

[taniwharugby]

@Crucial arent there images he took of her dead body?

Watching porn, going on another date the next night...that sounds cold to me

Accidental or not, his actions after she died are beyond normal (I appreciate the situaiotn isnt normal either)

[Bones]

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial arent there images he took of her dead body?

Watching porn, going on another date the next night...that sounds cold to me

Accidental or not, his actions after she died are beyond normal (I appreciate the situaiotn isnt normal either)

Yeah I struggle to see how you could come up with the idea of going on another date to help cover things up, but then I guess I'm kinda glad that's not a thought that occurs to me, who's to say it didn't make sense to him?

[taniwharugby]

@Bones yeah it is hard to imagine how you would react...I reckon I'd be a frantic panicker, board a flight to Mexico or something, thats where crims hang out isnt it?

[Mokey]

For someone allegedly in panic mode, he took a lot of steps requiring thought process and considered action afterward. Taking pics. Body in suitcase. Googling things. Driving without raising any alarm, all the way to the hills. Burying body. Setting up a new date. Watching porn.

[A Former User]

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial arent there images he took of her dead body?

Watching porn, going on another date the next night...that sounds cold to me

Accidental or not, his actions after she died are beyond normal (I appreciate the situaiotn isnt normal either)

Jesus he took images?? Is there any evidence that he's done this before? I can't imagine how her family must feel, and his. So sad. I think he knew what he was doing, imagine if he had got away with, he would have done it again I bet.

[Bones]

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

@Bones yeah it is hard to imagine how you would react...I reckon I'd be a frantic panicker, board a flight to Mexico or something, thats where crims hang out isnt it?

It's been a while since we heard from @SammyC eh.

It seems a bizarre and frantic thought process.

[Crucial]

@Mokey said in Grace Millane:

For someone allegedly in panic mode, he took a lot of steps requiring thought process and considered action afterward. Taking pics. Body in suitcase. Googling things. Driving without raising any alarm, all the way to the hills. Burying body. Setting up a new date. Watching porn.

I think panic takes different forms in different people. Some people when presented with a situation to process and deal with revert to coldly and mechanically going through options.
Not a completely similar situation but I tend to get 'matter of fact' and start working through options and processes when dealt something out of the blue while some others around me fall to pieces (eg a family bereavement).
I'm absolutely not trying to find excuses for this guy. He is obviously a deluded shithead to think he could kill someone and dispose of the body. Not to mention the knowledge of hurt he had inflicted. I'm just applying possibilities and explanations to try and understand what was more likely to have actually happened.
As for a date the next day. Easily a deluded way to set up an alibi. 'Where is Grace?', 'I don't know. She came back with me but left while I was asleep and I've already moved on'
As for watching porn? Was he watching anything related? Was he in a weird frame of mind that had him reverting to his normal behaviour while trying to deal with the abnormal.
To me it is quite obvious that he caused her death and holds responsibility. It's a question of how much he is to blame. What is his degree of culpability (and therefore punishment)? Does his explanation of events stack up?

[antipodean]

My only question is did he do all the things after she died? If so, hard to make the argument that it's pre-meditated.

[Siam]

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

[jegga]

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

[Crucial]

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

[Crucial]

Evidence presented today showed that toxicology reports had the victim and minimum of twice the blood alcohol level for drunk driving.
Irrespective of how you define being pissed, combine this with the defendant claiming to have passed out in the shower and his culpability rises.
Carrying out a risky sex act while drunk and with a partner not in a fit state to understand and assess that risk puts a lot of blame on him despite intentions.
I don’t know enough about how that culpability translates as a difference between manslaughter and murder. Does murder have to include intent or is recklessness enough?

[jegga]

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .

Your thoughts @snowy ?

[taniwharugby]

@Crucial in NZ it is Murder or manslaughter isnt it?

Murder = pre-meditated
Manslaughter = a wide variety of ways someone can be killed via accidental or someone being reckless/dangerous causing thier death?

[Snowy]

@jegga I've never "accidentally" killed anyone, so can't really comment. I also doubt that she "deserved" it.

Your comments are valid in my opinion though, talk about walk into danger.

[No Quarter]

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .

Your thoughts @snowy ?

Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.

I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.

[jegga]

@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .

Your thoughts @snowy ?

Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.

I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.

The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .

[No Quarter]

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .

Your thoughts @snowy ?

Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.

I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.

The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .

That guy was a real piece of work.