Grace Millane

[antipodean]

My only question is did he do all the things after she died? If so, hard to make the argument that it's pre-meditated.

[Siam]

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

[jegga]

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

[Crucial]

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

[Crucial]

Evidence presented today showed that toxicology reports had the victim and minimum of twice the blood alcohol level for drunk driving.
Irrespective of how you define being pissed, combine this with the defendant claiming to have passed out in the shower and his culpability rises.
Carrying out a risky sex act while drunk and with a partner not in a fit state to understand and assess that risk puts a lot of blame on him despite intentions.
I don’t know enough about how that culpability translates as a difference between manslaughter and murder. Does murder have to include intent or is recklessness enough?

[jegga]

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .

Your thoughts @snowy ?

[taniwharugby]

@Crucial in NZ it is Murder or manslaughter isnt it?

Murder = pre-meditated
Manslaughter = a wide variety of ways someone can be killed via accidental or someone being reckless/dangerous causing thier death?

[Snowy]

@jegga I've never "accidentally" killed anyone, so can't really comment. I also doubt that she "deserved" it.

Your comments are valid in my opinion though, talk about walk into danger.

[No Quarter]

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .

Your thoughts @snowy ?

Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.

I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.

[jegga]

@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .

Your thoughts @snowy ?

Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.

I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.

The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .

[No Quarter]

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .

Your thoughts @snowy ?

Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.

I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.

The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .

That guy was a real piece of work.

[Siam]

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

You've just made that up to suit your opinion.

[Crucial]

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

You've just made that up to suit your opinion.

Eh? How is that view any more or less made up than the one of attention seeking?

I didn't dismiss the other view at all and one doesn't negate the other. As I said, could be a combo and even that doesn't exclude other motivations.

The reason I didn't dismiss the first view is that I was experiencing those comments from the other side of the world. You sometimes don't get the nuance or peripheral goings on when only seeing small parts of the picture, so I didn't judge.
However, that also meant that I was getting another viewpoint, the one that the UK press was pushing and was also being picked up on the worldwide feeds from that.
The headlines and comments were very quick to take the slant that 'our wonderful brit kids are in mortal danger if they travel alone in NZ'. The turn around was also quite rapid after Ardern's performance and switched to how even our PM was upset so this definitely wasn't the norm.
Maybe it was opportunistic of her, I don't know.
I tend to think that most things we think cynically of as cunning plans are actually incompetence and/or stumbled upon opportunity, especially when it comes to public servants.

[taniwharugby]

patches of blood around the room surely makes the accidental strangulation in a sex act less likely???

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/117257503/grace-millane-murder-trial-accused-cleaned-up-evidence-from-apartment-where-she-died

[canefan]

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .

Your thoughts @snowy ?

Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.

I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.

The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .

He went out and got a pizza. This guy surfed the net for hardcore porn and information about how to dispose of a body and clean a crime scene. Then he went out the next night on another tinder date. Not normal behaviour

[Crazy Horse]

@canefan said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .

Your thoughts @snowy ?

Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.

I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.

The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .

He went out and got a pizza. This guy surfed the net for hardcore porn and information about how to dispose of a body and clean a crime scene. Then he went out the next night on another tinder date. Not normal behaviour

I know nothing about this case, but I have seen people do weird shit following a traumatic event. Not sure there is 'normal' behaviour.

[Godder]

To show murder, the prosecution has to prove a few things beyond reasonable doubt:

1. That it was homicide, legally defined as the killing of a human being by another human being, rather than natural causes like old age, illness, undiagnosed heart condition etc. Animal attacks and suicide are also not counted as homicide.

2. That the homicide is culpable i.e. caused by an illegal act or omission. Hitting and killing a pedestrian is homicide but it won't be culpable if they jump in front of a truck or train who has no way to avoid the accident.

3. That the act was deliberate, premeditated and intended to cause death, or reckless as to whether death might occur and death was a reasonable possibility (arson while knowing someone is in the building is an example of this). It's also murder if someone deliberately causes grievous bodily injury during the commission of a serious crime or while escaping from it.

4. If it's culpable homicide but not murder, it's manslaughter.

People can consent to BDSM, but not to actual harm or death. Strangulation is a crime (section 189A of the Crimes Act), so it might be difficult to show that the homicide is not culpable, in which case it's at least manslaughter.

[booboo]

@Godder thanks

Can you confirm for me that if they don't prove murder they can still convict for manslaughter at the same trial huh? (Always thought they could default down but someone somewhere, maybe even here, can't be bothered checking, seemed to suggest they couldn't)

[hydro11]

@Crazy-Horse said in Grace Millane:

@canefan said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .

Your thoughts @snowy ?

Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.

I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.

The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .

He went out and got a pizza. This guy surfed the net for hardcore porn and information about how to dispose of a body and clean a crime scene. Then he went out the next night on another tinder date. Not normal behaviour

I know nothing about this case, but I have seen people do weird shit following a traumatic event. Not sure there is 'normal' behaviour.

There is abnormal behaviour though. Trying to dispose the body is probably normal. A tinder date the next night? Shouldn't a remorseful person be too much of a mess?

[Frank]

@Crazy-Horse said in Grace Millane:

@canefan said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Crucial said in Grace Millane:

@jegga said in Grace Millane:

@Siam said in Grace Millane:

@taniwharugby said in Grace Millane:

while proving he intended to murder her will be difficult and sounds like it could have been accidental, his reported actions after murdering her seem pretty cold rather than panic.

Our Prime minister gave the impression she was abducted by a predator. Turns out not nearly as nefarious as that at all, as she consented to being with him

I don't think any layperson can expect to draw easy conclusions to activities after an unexpected death ( if it was unexpected). One of those situations where a law officer with years of experience in this sort of thing remarks " you wouldn't believe what people do around a dead person". I.e. almost impossible to tie this one up in a nice bow presented as undeniable mode, motive and opportunity.

Messy, but not something NZ needs to apologise and grovel for

There was an international audience though , a tearful speech and apology would get her great overseas coverage.

It also killed off (or misdirected) a lot of damaging comments regarding safety of tourists in NZ.
Or even a combination of the two.

Tourists die here occasionally unfortunately. I don’t recall a similar display of public emotional incontinence from Helen Clark when Birget Bauer died .
I think the real danger factor here was not the country it happened in but dating apps like tinder which seems to be getting glossed over a bit . I think hooking up with someone you don’t know outside of their Facebook profile in a foreign country is incredibly risky . I’m sure if you’re a nutter like this guy a traveler with less contacts and therefore people to notice she’s missing is an attractive target .

Your thoughts @snowy ?

Without a doubt. Going way back people's sexual partners were almost always known to them through family and friends. That's obviously changed over time but the dating apps have thrown it into overdrive. They're a great place for stalkers and creeps to hang out - they have an app that actually lists a bunch of potential victims in their area for them.

I would advise extreme caution to young women putting themselves on those - from where I'm sitting they seem like a pretty obvious recipe for disaster.

The two people in that case on the Gold Coast where the girl fell from the high rise met on tinder I think , his behaviour after she died was similar too .

He went out and got a pizza. This guy surfed the net for hardcore porn and information about how to dispose of a body and clean a crime scene. Then he went out the next night on another tinder date. Not normal behaviour

I know nothing about this case, but I have seen people do weird shit following a traumatic event. Not sure there is 'normal' behaviour.

Well it was "traumatic" for him in that he killed her and then disposed of the body. And by your standard, the subsequent behavior of a possible offender would have little if any relevance, no matter how suspicious.

If you accidentally kill someone during sex you call the cops - immediately.