Grace Millane
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@Virgil said in Grace Millane:
Gee the herald is really flogging this all they can’t aren’t they. If updated daily reports wasn’t enough now we have this special ‘final days’ article. I assume 75% of the feralds ‘journalists’ are working day and night on this story.
What are they going to do when it’s over?Go back to trawling twitter for trending clickbait that they can cut and paste?
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I'm really none the wiser at the moment.
There is one piece of presented evidence though that bugs me. The internet searches in the early hours.
The prosecution says he was searching how to dispose of the body (very likely) the defence says they were random (very unlikely).
If searching how to dispose then either she was dead already or (the sinister option) he could see an opportunity to kill someone and blame it on BDSM so was planning.
I am going to discard the second option as it defies logic. Why not kill her and then phone police with concocted story?
That leaves the more likely scenario which is that he knew she was dead.
He says that he didn't know until he woke later. Why, even after admitting killing her, is he holding onto this likely lie? What is the relevance of the timing? What does he know that makes it relevant (but we don't)?
He says he was too drunk to even know she was dead and crashed out in the shower. But then sober enough to randomly type 'hottest fire' and 'Waitakere' into his phone? Just doesn't ring true.That unanswered question has me casting more doubt on the defence than the prosecution but the defence doesn't have to prove itself only the prosecution does.
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I'd be surprised if they don't appeal.
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@No-Quarter Agree, although that would normally be after sentencing. Guessing he will get life with 10 years non-parole, which is the minimum, unless there is something particularly vicious about it that wasn't apparent from the trial reports.
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@Virgil said in Grace Millane:
Guilty!!
All things considered I think it is the right decision. All of the stuff this guy did after the killing were not the actions of a man panicking about an accidental death
I actually think that they could be. Not 'normal' behaviour, sure, but not in the realm of not possible.
The key is 'accidental'. As explained above the expert evidence was that an accident would be very difficult to achieve. Add to that the continued lie about internet searches and the suspicion is that he knew what he had done because at some point he decided to do it (or continue with it) -
@Godder said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter Agree, although that would normally be after sentencing. Guessing he will get life with 10 years non-parole, which is the minimum, unless there is something particularly vicious about it that wasn't apparent from the trial reports.
Can someone in the know tell me why it will be Feb before sentencing?
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@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
I'm really none the wiser at the moment.
There is one piece of presented evidence though that bugs me. The internet searches in the early hours.
The prosecution says he was searching how to dispose of the body (very likely) the defence says they were random (very unlikely).
If searching how to dispose then either she was dead already or (the sinister option) he could see an opportunity to kill someone and blame it on BDSM so was planning.
I am going to discard the second option as it defies logic. Why not kill her and then phone police with concocted story?
That leaves the more likely scenario which is that he knew she was dead.
He says that he didn't know until he woke later. Why, even after admitting killing her, is he holding onto this likely lie? What is the relevance of the timing? What does he know that makes it relevant (but we don't)?
He says he was too drunk to even know she was dead and crashed out in the shower. But then sober enough to randomly type 'hottest fire' and 'Waitakere' into his phone? Just doesn't ring true.That unanswered question has me casting more doubt on the defence than the prosecution but the defence doesn't have to prove itself only the prosecution does.
On the news tonight, they said records were taken off his phone. Presumably after Grace died he searched
Waitakere ranges
Hottest fire
Porn
Took photos of her naked body
PornEven vaguely normal behavior for a panic stricken man?
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
I'm really none the wiser at the moment.
There is one piece of presented evidence though that bugs me. The internet searches in the early hours.
The prosecution says he was searching how to dispose of the body (very likely) the defence says they were random (very unlikely).
If searching how to dispose then either she was dead already or (the sinister option) he could see an opportunity to kill someone and blame it on BDSM so was planning.
I am going to discard the second option as it defies logic. Why not kill her and then phone police with concocted story?
That leaves the more likely scenario which is that he knew she was dead.
He says that he didn't know until he woke later. Why, even after admitting killing her, is he holding onto this likely lie? What is the relevance of the timing? What does he know that makes it relevant (but we don't)?
He says he was too drunk to even know she was dead and crashed out in the shower. But then sober enough to randomly type 'hottest fire' and 'Waitakere' into his phone? Just doesn't ring true.That unanswered question has me casting more doubt on the defence than the prosecution but the defence doesn't have to prove itself only the prosecution does.
On the news tonight, they said records were taken off his phone. Presumably after Grace died he searched
Waitakere ranges
Hottest fire
Porn
Took photos of her naked body
PornEven vaguely normal behavior for a panic stricken man?
Not at all. Didn't we go through this pages ago? Define 'normal'.
What his actions do though is look consistent with someone that knows they have a dead body and are deciding what to do. The defence said those actions were random and he didn't discover she was dead until later.
That is the bit that beggars belief and if he insists on lying about that then the 'panicked path followed by full disclosure' argument doesn't hold up. -
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@Godder said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial have to get a pre-sentence report and take into account Christmas/New Year.
Bit rough on the victim's family. Courts move so slow.
There is a full month until xmas and even then mid-Jan is when most of the country returns to work.
Just seems way too long.
(mind you court cases seem way too long to me as well. Always seem to start mid morning, have a morning tea break, have a long lunch etc etc
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@canefan The thing is if this guy did plan to kill Grace, he could have prepared a lot better. The mad panic to dispose the body in some ways shows that it wasn't premeditated. If he wanted to strangle a tinder date to death, he could have thought up a better way to do it.
I still think it was the right decision. If he had called the Police after finding Grace dead then I think he would have gotten off with just manslaughter.
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
He did. I was just saying that the actions after death are of some importance but not the end of the story. You say his actions after the death weren't those of a guy panicking after an accidental death. I think the way the body was disposed could have been.
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
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@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Did you catch the expert evidence? He stated that the strangulation would’ve been long, like 5 to 10 minutes and continuous. That’s not a common thing BDSM people do. There would have been symptoms of an issue way before death.
