Grace Millane
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@Godder said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter Agree, although that would normally be after sentencing. Guessing he will get life with 10 years non-parole, which is the minimum, unless there is something particularly vicious about it that wasn't apparent from the trial reports.
Can someone in the know tell me why it will be Feb before sentencing?
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@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
I'm really none the wiser at the moment.
There is one piece of presented evidence though that bugs me. The internet searches in the early hours.
The prosecution says he was searching how to dispose of the body (very likely) the defence says they were random (very unlikely).
If searching how to dispose then either she was dead already or (the sinister option) he could see an opportunity to kill someone and blame it on BDSM so was planning.
I am going to discard the second option as it defies logic. Why not kill her and then phone police with concocted story?
That leaves the more likely scenario which is that he knew she was dead.
He says that he didn't know until he woke later. Why, even after admitting killing her, is he holding onto this likely lie? What is the relevance of the timing? What does he know that makes it relevant (but we don't)?
He says he was too drunk to even know she was dead and crashed out in the shower. But then sober enough to randomly type 'hottest fire' and 'Waitakere' into his phone? Just doesn't ring true.That unanswered question has me casting more doubt on the defence than the prosecution but the defence doesn't have to prove itself only the prosecution does.
On the news tonight, they said records were taken off his phone. Presumably after Grace died he searched
Waitakere ranges
Hottest fire
Porn
Took photos of her naked body
PornEven vaguely normal behavior for a panic stricken man?
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
I'm really none the wiser at the moment.
There is one piece of presented evidence though that bugs me. The internet searches in the early hours.
The prosecution says he was searching how to dispose of the body (very likely) the defence says they were random (very unlikely).
If searching how to dispose then either she was dead already or (the sinister option) he could see an opportunity to kill someone and blame it on BDSM so was planning.
I am going to discard the second option as it defies logic. Why not kill her and then phone police with concocted story?
That leaves the more likely scenario which is that he knew she was dead.
He says that he didn't know until he woke later. Why, even after admitting killing her, is he holding onto this likely lie? What is the relevance of the timing? What does he know that makes it relevant (but we don't)?
He says he was too drunk to even know she was dead and crashed out in the shower. But then sober enough to randomly type 'hottest fire' and 'Waitakere' into his phone? Just doesn't ring true.That unanswered question has me casting more doubt on the defence than the prosecution but the defence doesn't have to prove itself only the prosecution does.
On the news tonight, they said records were taken off his phone. Presumably after Grace died he searched
Waitakere ranges
Hottest fire
Porn
Took photos of her naked body
PornEven vaguely normal behavior for a panic stricken man?
Not at all. Didn't we go through this pages ago? Define 'normal'.
What his actions do though is look consistent with someone that knows they have a dead body and are deciding what to do. The defence said those actions were random and he didn't discover she was dead until later.
That is the bit that beggars belief and if he insists on lying about that then the 'panicked path followed by full disclosure' argument doesn't hold up. -
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@Godder said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial have to get a pre-sentence report and take into account Christmas/New Year.
Bit rough on the victim's family. Courts move so slow.
There is a full month until xmas and even then mid-Jan is when most of the country returns to work.
Just seems way too long.
(mind you court cases seem way too long to me as well. Always seem to start mid morning, have a morning tea break, have a long lunch etc etc
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@canefan The thing is if this guy did plan to kill Grace, he could have prepared a lot better. The mad panic to dispose the body in some ways shows that it wasn't premeditated. If he wanted to strangle a tinder date to death, he could have thought up a better way to do it.
I still think it was the right decision. If he had called the Police after finding Grace dead then I think he would have gotten off with just manslaughter.
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
He did. I was just saying that the actions after death are of some importance but not the end of the story. You say his actions after the death weren't those of a guy panicking after an accidental death. I think the way the body was disposed could have been.
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
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@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Did you catch the expert evidence? He stated that the strangulation wouldâve been long, like 5 to 10 minutes and continuous. Thatâs not a common thing BDSM people do. There would have been symptoms of an issue way before death.
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@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Did you catch the expert evidence? He stated that the strangulation wouldâve been long, like 5 to 10 minutes and continuous. Thatâs not a common thing BDSM people do. There would have been symptoms of an issue way before death.
If you want to kill someone by strangling them they will pass out first, sometime before they are dead
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@No-Quarter in the summary the judge said:
"It is only at that point does the issue of consent comes in. Consent is not a defence to murder,â
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@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Did you catch the expert evidence? He stated that the strangulation wouldâve been long, like 5 to 10 minutes and continuous. Thatâs not a common thing BDSM people do. There would have been symptoms of an issue way before death.
Don't they? How do you know?
I'm not trying to defend this guys actions, he sounds like an absolute piece of work and we're all better for him being off the streets. But the decision has to be in line with the law or we run the risk of setting a precedent. I'm almost certain accidental deaths do occur during BDSM - the whole idea is to push it to the limit - is murder an appropriate charge?
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@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Did you catch the expert evidence? He stated that the strangulation wouldâve been long, like 5 to 10 minutes and continuous. Thatâs not a common thing BDSM people do. There would have been symptoms of an issue way before death.
Don't they? How do you know?
I'm not trying to defend this guys actions, he sounds like an absolute piece of work and we're all better for him being off the streets. But the decision has to be in line with the law or we run the risk of setting a precedent. I'm almost certain accidental deaths do occur during BDSM - the whole idea is to push it to the limit - is murder an appropriate charge?
"The forensic pathologist who autopsied Millaneâs body said the bruises on her upper body were classic signs of ârestraintâ and he had never seen a case of death resulting from consensual sexual strangulation in New Zealand, calling such an incident âincredibly rareâ world-wide."
That appeared in local publications but this flashed up first
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What's the story in withholding the guy's name still?
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Did you catch the expert evidence? He stated that the strangulation wouldâve been long, like 5 to 10 minutes and continuous. Thatâs not a common thing BDSM people do. There would have been symptoms of an issue way before death.
Don't they? How do you know?
I'm not trying to defend this guys actions, he sounds like an absolute piece of work and we're all better for him being off the streets. But the decision has to be in line with the law or we run the risk of setting a precedent. I'm almost certain accidental deaths do occur during BDSM - the whole idea is to push it to the limit - is murder an appropriate charge?
"The forensic pathologist who autopsied Millaneâs body said the bruises on her upper body were classic signs of ârestraintâ and he had never seen a case of death resulting from consensual sexual strangulation in New Zealand, calling such an incident âincredibly rareâ world-wide."
That appeared in local publications but this flashed up first
That's good information and must have played a role in the decision.
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@Catogrande said in Grace Millane:
What's the story in withholding the guy's name still?
To allow for sentencing and the chance of an appeal I believe.
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@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Appears to be consensual doesn't mean it was. And strangulation isn't at all 'a fairly common thing that people into BDSM do'
What an utter bullshit statement. BDSM isn't a monolith where everyone does everything. There are lots of different elements and kinks, practiced to varying degrees. But those who incorporate it into their lives have strict rules regarding boundaries, trust, consent, and pleasure for all.
It isn't some drunken fuckwit strangling a woman to death.
