Grace Millane
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
He did. I was just saying that the actions after death are of some importance but not the end of the story. You say his actions after the death weren't those of a guy panicking after an accidental death. I think the way the body was disposed could have been.
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
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@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Did you catch the expert evidence? He stated that the strangulation would’ve been long, like 5 to 10 minutes and continuous. That’s not a common thing BDSM people do. There would have been symptoms of an issue way before death.
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@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Did you catch the expert evidence? He stated that the strangulation would’ve been long, like 5 to 10 minutes and continuous. That’s not a common thing BDSM people do. There would have been symptoms of an issue way before death.
If you want to kill someone by strangling them they will pass out first, sometime before they are dead
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@No-Quarter in the summary the judge said:
"It is only at that point does the issue of consent comes in. Consent is not a defence to murder,”
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@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Did you catch the expert evidence? He stated that the strangulation would’ve been long, like 5 to 10 minutes and continuous. That’s not a common thing BDSM people do. There would have been symptoms of an issue way before death.
Don't they? How do you know?
I'm not trying to defend this guys actions, he sounds like an absolute piece of work and we're all better for him being off the streets. But the decision has to be in line with the law or we run the risk of setting a precedent. I'm almost certain accidental deaths do occur during BDSM - the whole idea is to push it to the limit - is murder an appropriate charge?
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@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Did you catch the expert evidence? He stated that the strangulation would’ve been long, like 5 to 10 minutes and continuous. That’s not a common thing BDSM people do. There would have been symptoms of an issue way before death.
Don't they? How do you know?
I'm not trying to defend this guys actions, he sounds like an absolute piece of work and we're all better for him being off the streets. But the decision has to be in line with the law or we run the risk of setting a precedent. I'm almost certain accidental deaths do occur during BDSM - the whole idea is to push it to the limit - is murder an appropriate charge?
"The forensic pathologist who autopsied Millane’s body said the bruises on her upper body were classic signs of “restraint” and he had never seen a case of death resulting from consensual sexual strangulation in New Zealand, calling such an incident “incredibly rare” world-wide."
That appeared in local publications but this flashed up first
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What's the story in withholding the guy's name still?
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@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Did you catch the expert evidence? He stated that the strangulation would’ve been long, like 5 to 10 minutes and continuous. That’s not a common thing BDSM people do. There would have been symptoms of an issue way before death.
Don't they? How do you know?
I'm not trying to defend this guys actions, he sounds like an absolute piece of work and we're all better for him being off the streets. But the decision has to be in line with the law or we run the risk of setting a precedent. I'm almost certain accidental deaths do occur during BDSM - the whole idea is to push it to the limit - is murder an appropriate charge?
"The forensic pathologist who autopsied Millane’s body said the bruises on her upper body were classic signs of “restraint” and he had never seen a case of death resulting from consensual sexual strangulation in New Zealand, calling such an incident “incredibly rare” world-wide."
That appeared in local publications but this flashed up first
That's good information and must have played a role in the decision.
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@Catogrande said in Grace Millane:
What's the story in withholding the guy's name still?
To allow for sentencing and the chance of an appeal I believe.
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@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Appears to be consensual doesn't mean it was. And strangulation isn't at all 'a fairly common thing that people into BDSM do'
What an utter bullshit statement. BDSM isn't a monolith where everyone does everything. There are lots of different elements and kinks, practiced to varying degrees. But those who incorporate it into their lives have strict rules regarding boundaries, trust, consent, and pleasure for all.
It isn't some drunken fuckwit strangling a woman to death.
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@Catogrande said in Grace Millane:
What's the story in withholding the guy's name still?
I’m pretty sure the Brit press will out him, not that his name will mean anything.
The Herald has just released an article full of information about him except his name.
Has a long background in lying to people apparently -
@Crucial said in Grace Millane:
@Catogrande said in Grace Millane:
What's the story in withholding the guy's name still?
I’m pretty sure the Brit press will out him, not that his name will mean anything.
The Herald has just released an article full of information about him except his name.
Has a long background in lying to people apparentlyHis family had reportedly disowned him some time ago. A really bad seed obviously
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@Mokey said in Grace Millane:
@No-Quarter said in Grace Millane:
@canefan said in Grace Millane:
@hydro11 didn't the judge sum up to say it didn't need to be premeditated?
Yes, that is the grey area. Basically they are saying it was a reckless act and reasonably foreseeable that death could result. I'm far from convinced TBH, I think they've set a pretty low bar for a charge of murder given it appears to be consensual and, all things considered, a fairly common thing people into BDSM do.
BDSM + alcohol don't mix.
Appears to be consensual doesn't mean it was. And strangulation isn't at all 'a fairly common thing that people into BDSM do'
What an utter bullshit statement. BDSM isn't a monolith where everyone does everything. There are lots of different elements and kinks, practiced to varying degrees. But those who incorporate it into their lives have strict rules regarding boundaries, trust, consent, and pleasure for all.
It isn't some drunken fuckwit strangling a woman to death.
Schooled!
