All Blacks XV - New second tier team

[Stargazer]

I guess we'll have to wait for the updated version of this document:

Men's and Women's Next Senior National Representative Team 2019

[Crucial]

As a side issue, should their be different eligibility rules for 'second team' players? That is, maybe a stand-down period before becoming eligible elsewhere rather than a flat out lock in.

Would be good for PI rugby. Plenty of guys that would have been picked in a AB XV team that didn't make the ABs but went on to rep for someone else. The likes of TNW for example.

[Canes4life]

@shark hahaha ffs. THE GUY ISN'T A LOCK!!

[shark]

@Canes4life said in All Blacks XV - New second tier team:

@shark hahaha ffs. THE GUY ISN'T A LOCK!!

You mean in terms of size (agreed) or positionally?? Because that's where he plays for the Canes and Wellington.

[cgrant]

If Rieko Ioane is now considered as a centre, then Telea and Alaimalo must come into consideration for the All Blacks (and maybe Bridge though his performances during the WC let me think he want make the AB squad) for the left wing spot. This leaves Nareki for the All Blacks XV.

[junior]

@Crucial said in All Blacks XV - New second tier team:

@Kirwan said in All Blacks XV - New second tier team:

@Machpants said in All Blacks XV - New second tier team:

Unless NZR officialy go to world rugby and change the designated side, which is currenlty JAB, players in this side won't be captured. I don't know if NZR will, I think they will rely on the carrot of possible later full AB rather than tying in players who may never represent NZ again, and then can't anyone else. But maybe I am assigning too much altruism to NZR!

I read this line to mean that's what they were doing?

""The All Blacks XV will be our second-tier team below the All Blacks and made up New Zealand's 'next best' players," Cass said"

And the rest of the article talks about retention of players.

That’s how I read it too.
Looks like a switch in policy to me. I always thought that having the unused JABs as designated second team was a deliberate ploy to keep pathway options open for some (particularly PI) players. Some may stay developing in NZ and become viable AB options if they know they still have a fallback international option. Gives them two options.
Now it could be the opposite. Will those fringe players want to play for the XV knowing that it may be their peak?

Yeah, this is my concern - how many guys will want to tie themselves to NZ without actually getting an AB cap?

Will certain guys politefully decline selection because it will preclude them from paying for another international team if they never subsequently play for the ABs?

What happens to those guys in terms of getting future NZRU contracts? Will they be offered such contracts if they decline to represent the AB XV?

Will it have the opposite effect of what's intended and actually force those guys to leave earlier as they are no longer being offered / eligible for NZRU contracts?

Does AB selection need to be tied to representing the AB XV in order to make this work as intended, i.e. do we need to make AB eligibility dependent upon first playing for the AB XV?

[Duluth]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-best-of-the-rest-the-contenders-to-play-for-the-first-ever-all-blacks-xv

[Machpants]

@junior said in All Blacks XV - New second tier team:

@Crucial said in All Blacks XV - New second tier team:

@Kirwan said in All Blacks XV - New second tier team:

@Machpants said in All Blacks XV - New second tier team:

Unless NZR officialy go to world rugby and change the designated side, which is currenlty JAB, players in this side won't be captured. I don't know if NZR will, I think they will rely on the carrot of possible later full AB rather than tying in players who may never represent NZ again, and then can't anyone else. But maybe I am assigning too much altruism to NZR!

I read this line to mean that's what they were doing?

""The All Blacks XV will be our second-tier team below the All Blacks and made up New Zealand's 'next best' players," Cass said"

And the rest of the article talks about retention of players.

That’s how I read it too.
Looks like a switch in policy to me. I always thought that having the unused JABs as designated second team was a deliberate ploy to keep pathway options open for some (particularly PI) players. Some may stay developing in NZ and become viable AB options if they know they still have a fallback international option. Gives them two options.
Now it could be the opposite. Will those fringe players want to play for the XV knowing that it may be their peak?

Yeah, this is my concern - how many guys will want to tie themselves to NZ without actually getting an AB cap?

Will certain guys politefully decline selection because it will preclude them from paying for another international team if they never subsequently play for the ABs?

What happens to those guys in terms of getting future NZRU contracts? Will they be offered such contracts if they decline to represent the AB XV?

Will it have the opposite effect of what's intended and actually force those guys to leave earlier as they are no longer being offered / eligible for NZRU contracts?

Does AB selection need to be tied to representing the AB XV in order to make this work as intended, i.e. do we need to make AB eligibility dependent upon first playing for the AB XV?

There has been no word, yes or no, if this team is taking the place of the JABs. So all the eligibility stuff is still up in the air.

As to having to represent XV before full ABs, no way will that happen. Never happened with the JABs, and ot going to happen with XV. Like the JAB, the XV will not have a full program of games, and it would be nonsense that you have to play for the 2nd XV before the 1st XV. If you're good enough, you're good enough.

[Crucial]

NZR certainly used the term ‘second team’
If not the official second team then it really does take the piss regarding WR regulations.
Our second team is one that we have announced as defunct?

[Machpants]

@Crucial there are other countries that do it, have a second team that doesn't capture eligibility

[Crucial]

@Machpants said in All Blacks XV - New second tier team:

@Crucial there are other countries that do it, have a second team that doesn't capture eligibility

Such as? Do they have an official second team that they have openly replaced?
England have “Saxons” and use them as example. Fiji have the Fiji Warriors, who the AB XV are scheduled to play.
It may be the case that a country has set up a one off team for a tour with a different name so they don’t trigger eligibility, but it’s not the same situation as this.

[Machpants]

@Crucial said in All Blacks XV - New second tier team:

@Machpants said in All Blacks XV - New second tier team:

@Crucial there are other countries that do it, have a second team that doesn't capture eligibility

Such as? Do they have an official second team that they have openly replaced?
England have “Saxons” and use them as example. Fiji have the Fiji Warriors, who the AB XV are scheduled to play.
It may be the case that a country has set up a one off team for a tour with a different name so they don’t trigger eligibility, but it’s not the same situation as this.

It could be I'm getting mixed up with tis. Googling around this is not easy, no one gives a fuck about the 2nd XV!

Aha I remember, France used their U20s (until it became illegal to do so) when they still had a France A (or sometime other name). I think there were a couple of countries like that, but that is not an option anymore

[Machpants]

"RugbyPass understands, however, that the new side won’t tie players to New Zealand – at least in 2020.

Under the World Rugby regulations, a nation can, on an annual basis, change their second nominated side. The NZR have not elected to make this change – at least for 2020 – which means that any players who represent the All Blacks XV this season will still be able to play for a foreign nation in the future."

[Crucial]

@Machpants said in All Blacks XV - New second tier team:

"RugbyPass understands, however, that the new side won’t tie players to New Zealand – at least in 2020.

Under the World Rugby regulations, a nation can, on an annual basis, change their second nominated side. The NZR have not elected to make this change – at least for 2020 – which means that any players who represent the All Blacks XV this season will still be able to play for a foreign nation in the future."

Cool. I hadn’t spotted that. It is the situation I’d prefer.
Still think it’s taking the regs for a ride though. Basically saying “we will have a second team that doesn’t exist “.
But then again some countries don’t even have a second team.

[Canes4life]

@shark I mean in size, I know he plays there for the Canes and Wellington, it's frustrating, especially considering he was a very solid 6 before moving to the second row.