Possible All Blacks 2020
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@Bones said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
B ) In any case, it's pretty debatable if Sam Cane plays blindside that he'd just be an Openside with the wrong number.
Well, he's started 48 tests in the 7 jersey.
Look up how many tests he's started in the 6 jersey and report back to me!
Then I'll tell you an anecdote about the time I started in the 6 jersey!
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Bones said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
B ) In any case, it's pretty debatable if Sam Cane plays blindside that he'd just be an Openside with the wrong number.
Well, he's started 48 tests in the 7 jersey.
Look up how many tests he's started in the 6 jersey and report back to me!
Then I'll tell you an anecdote about the time I started in the 6 jersey!
So when Nonu moved to 12 from 13 - he spent the rest of his career being out of position?
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@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Bones said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
B ) In any case, it's pretty debatable if Sam Cane plays blindside that he'd just be an Openside with the wrong number.
Well, he's started 48 tests in the 7 jersey.
Look up how many tests he's started in the 6 jersey and report back to me!
I don't remember Sir Michael Niko Jones KNZM starting many tests at blindside before 1996 either...
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@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
How about shifting Joe Moody to 14?
Excellent way to reduce the penalty count!
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@Chris-B
Agree they are the absolute gold standard, especially from 2011-2013, but 2019 Ardie Savea was possibly a better 8 than 2019 Read - he stuck around and tried his best, but he was never as good after the back surgery.
Anyway, Cane captains and starts at 7 in my team. Ardie can go play league if he isn't prepared to play 8 or off the bench.
@gt12 said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
2019 Ardie Savea was possibly a better 8 than 2019 Read
2019 Ardie Savea was probably the best 6, 7 and 8 in New Zealand last year. At only 26 he's starting to mature and is already a more complete player than Cane, but will probably end up playing 8 to accommodate.
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@junior now you are making shit up, cant see where I ever said that.
@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior now you are making shit up, cant see where I ever said that.
I didn't say you said that, mate. I asked if you thought that made his brain fade OK. So, do you?
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
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@gt12 said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B
Actually, peak JK with Cane at 7 and Ardie at 8 wouldn't be that bad at all.
IMHO, we'd have been better last year at the World Cup with that combination that any other we put out.
Kaino, McCaw and Read is a long street ahead of any other combo we've had in recent times - everyone playing in their proper positions.
Going back to something like Jerry, Richie and Rodders is a big step backwards!
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@gt12 said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B
Actually, peak JK with Cane at 7 and Ardie at 8 wouldn't be that bad at all.
IMHO, we'd have been better last year at the World Cup with that combination that any other we put out.
Kaino, McCaw and Read is a long street ahead of any other combo we've had in recent times - everyone playing in their proper positions.
Going back to something like Jerry, Richie and Rodders is a big step backwards!
But still miles better than what we played in the RWC SF last year!
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@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
This is rather confusing....you say you agree wholeheartedly and then spend the rest of the post disagreeing?
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@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
This is rather confusing....you say you agree wholeheartedly and then spend the rest of the post disagreeing?
@Bones said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
This is rather confusing....you say you agree wholeheartedly and then spend the rest of the post disagreeing?
I mean, I agree wholeheartedly with @Chris-B , but that's on the premise we have someone appropriate to play the Kaino-esque role. Who that is NOW is, to my mind, unclear. (In a year or two the position is likely to become much clearer, with guys like Robinson, Sotutu, Akira, Jacobsen etc. looking potentially able to get there.)
So, my position is that, for NOW, we're going to have to suck it up and realise that play one of our two best open sides "out of position" (likely to be Ardie playing 8, IMO).
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@Bones said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
This is rather confusing....you say you agree wholeheartedly and then spend the rest of the post disagreeing?
I mean, I agree wholeheartedly with @Chris-B , but that's on the premise we have someone appropriate to play the Kaino-esque role. Who that is NOW is, to my mind, unclear. (In a year or two the position is likely to become much clearer, with guys like Robinson, Sotutu, Akira, Jacobsen etc. looking potentially able to get there.)
So, my position is that, for NOW, we're going to have to suck it up and realise that play one of our two best open sides "out of position" (likely to be Ardie playing 8, IMO).
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@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior now you are making shit up, cant see where I ever said that.
I didn't say you said that, mate. I asked if you thought that made his brain fade OK. So, do you?
@junior pretty sure I already said it was dumb AF, so no I didn't think it was great.
Your turn...
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@Bones said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
This is rather confusing....you say you agree wholeheartedly and then spend the rest of the post disagreeing?
I mean, I agree wholeheartedly with @Chris-B , but that's on the premise we have someone appropriate to play the Kaino-esque role. Who that is NOW is, to my mind, unclear. (In a year or two the position is likely to become much clearer, with guys like Robinson, Sotutu, Akira, Jacobsen etc. looking potentially able to get there.)
So, my position is that, for NOW, we're going to have to suck it up and realise that play one of our two best open sides "out of position" (likely to be Ardie playing 8, IMO).
@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Bones said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
This is rather confusing....you say you agree wholeheartedly and then spend the rest of the post disagreeing?
I mean, I agree wholeheartedly with @Chris-B , but that's on the premise we have someone appropriate to play the Kaino-esque role. Who that is NOW is, to my mind, unclear. (In a year or two the position is likely to become much clearer, with guys like Robinson, Sotutu, Akira, Jacobsen etc. looking potentially able to get there.)
So, my position is that, for NOW, we're going to have to suck it up and realise that play one of our two best open sides "out of position" (likely to be Ardie playing 8, IMO).
...and you're probably right that we'll end up doing this for a while - or maybe not given that there's unlikely to be any test rugby this year.
But, my original point was that if we have Sam Cane as captain, we're further muddying the waters, because there's a good chance he's no longer our best 7.
Beyond that, I'd be quite happy with him as captain. He seems to do a good job at the Chiefs and I think he presents better than Sam Whitelock.
But, I'll be pretty surprised if they don't choose Whitelock - that looked like the way the stars were aligning - and I'm not really worried about the RWC push. He's not a serial offender.
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@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Bones said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@junior said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Old-Samurai-Jack said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Chris-B Nah, crap. Cane and Ardie should be first on the team list but combine them both with a contrasting player to make up the loosies. Cane's shoulder is one of the most devastating in world rugby. Only problem I see is finding a taller player for the vacant loosie role. I really like the look of Robinson for that role.
Yeah - but, if we had a peak Jerome Kaino available no-one would even be considering playing dual sevens.
Calling a spade a spade - that is exactly what playing Sam and Ardie is.
And we'll get away with it in most games. But, in the biggest games we probably won't - Big Pieter-Steph will win World Cups and Player of the Year and we won't!
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but the issue is not Ardie vs. Cane - it's really who is our Kaino-esque number 6 that is going to add more on match day (big game or otherwise)?
Also, I don't see Cane and Ardie being so similar that playing them both means we are losing out other complementary skills. For instance, while they are probably evens in their ball-winning ability, Ardie is clearly a better attacking player, whereas Cane is definitely a better defender.
The next question is who is the currently available player who can best compliment those two guys in the back row - either as a 6 or 8?
This is rather confusing....you say you agree wholeheartedly and then spend the rest of the post disagreeing?
I mean, I agree wholeheartedly with @Chris-B , but that's on the premise we have someone appropriate to play the Kaino-esque role. Who that is NOW is, to my mind, unclear. (In a year or two the position is likely to become much clearer, with guys like Robinson, Sotutu, Akira, Jacobsen etc. looking potentially able to get there.)
So, my position is that, for NOW, we're going to have to suck it up and realise that play one of our two best open sides "out of position" (likely to be Ardie playing 8, IMO).
...and you're probably right that we'll end up doing this for a while - or maybe not given that there's unlikely to be any test rugby this year.
But, my original point was that if we have Sam Cane as captain, we're further muddying the waters, because there's a good chance he's no longer our best 7.
Beyond that, I'd be quite happy with him as captain. He seems to do a good job at the Chiefs and I think he presents better than Sam Whitelock.
But, I'll be pretty surprised if they don't choose Whitelock - that looked like the way the stars were aligning - and I'm not really worried about the RWC push. He's not a serial offender.
@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
But, my original point was that if we have Sam Cane as captain, we're further muddying the waters, because there's a good chance he's no longer our best 7.
For Tests, I'd start Cane ahead of anyone else at 7. Ardie is remarkable, but doesn't ahve the same physical impact of Cane. In Tests, for me, that's the deal breaker. I can live with compromised height with Ardie at 8 or off the bench, and it's really tough on Ardie as he is an increidble player, but for me, in Tests, it's Sam all the way.
What we have is an outstanding backup. Better than poor old Marty Holah, who happened to be sitting behind McCaw, or Hewitt behind Fitzpatrick.
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@Chris-B said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
But, my original point was that if we have Sam Cane as captain, we're further muddying the waters, because there's a good chance he's no longer our best 7.
For Tests, I'd start Cane ahead of anyone else at 7. Ardie is remarkable, but doesn't ahve the same physical impact of Cane. In Tests, for me, that's the deal breaker. I can live with compromised height with Ardie at 8 or off the bench, and it's really tough on Ardie as he is an increidble player, but for me, in Tests, it's Sam all the way.
What we have is an outstanding backup. Better than poor old Marty Holah, who happened to be sitting behind McCaw, or Hewitt behind Fitzpatrick.
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@Machpants while the numbers on thier backs were largely irrelevant, they still seemed ot use Cane more as a 7, whereas I'd have thought his game was closer to the way we use a 6, while Ardie was more in the 7 mould...
gonna be a LOOONNNGG 4 weeks
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@Machpants while the numbers on thier backs were largely irrelevant, they still seemed ot use Cane more as a 7, whereas I'd have thought his game was closer to the way we use a 6, while Ardie was more in the 7 mould...
gonna be a LOOONNNGG 4 weeks
@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Machpants while the numbers on thier backs were largely irrelevant, they still seemed ot use Cane more as a 7, whereas I'd have thought his game was closer to the way we use a 6, while Ardie was more in the 7 mould...
gonna be a LOOONNNGG 4 weeks
I think that is due to the fact Savea's running game was on fire, you don't want to waste a running game with a player making too many tackles and toiling away at rucks. Old Steve decided to test that theory against England and he confirmed to himself he'd made the correct decision in the previous 5 or 6 tests.
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@taniwharugby said in Possible All Blacks 2020:
@Machpants while the numbers on thier backs were largely irrelevant, they still seemed ot use Cane more as a 7, whereas I'd have thought his game was closer to the way we use a 6, while Ardie was more in the 7 mould...
gonna be a LOOONNNGG 4 weeks
I think that is due to the fact Savea's running game was on fire, you don't want to waste a running game with a player making too many tackles and toiling away at rucks. Old Steve decided to test that theory against England and he confirmed to himself he'd made the correct decision in the previous 5 or 6 tests.
@Nepia think we got our wires crossed?
Cane plays closer to a more traditional 6 role, but still played the 6.5/7 role, while Ardie is more a 7 but was still playing a 6.5 role as well, but I agree with Ardies game you wanted him roaming like like a loose 7?
