Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain
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@Canes4life The Captain.
Don't get me wrong. I don't think Cane is a better 7 than Savea. Cane is probably better against some teams but I don't believe he is out right a better 7.
I don't think the combination of starting Savea and Cane is a strong well rounded trio. My preference would be to start one or the other and not shoehorn them in to get our 'best' players on the park.
I would be more open to it if Akira was playing to his potential (lineout may still be too short) but I can't see any other loosie in NZ filling the gap. Grace would add height but no real carrying ability leaving Ardie to be the only ball carrier in the trio. Dalton may be a goer but I still worry about his concrete feet. Maybe Sotutu but he's a complete rookie.
It does look like it's going to be Foster's short term solution.
@Toddy Hi Toddy, I have seen Cullen play weekly since he was 13 and he is a ball runner as well. After that game vs the Blues when he was man of the match, you would have noticed the next week the Crusaders did use him a slightly different way as a runner. The beauty of Cullen is his brain first, then his athleticism, he understands game plans when others do not and can adjust his game accordingly. He is exceptionally rugby bright, one best players I have seen or worked with in this regard. This is why the Crusaders like him and players similar to him. His ball running is immense and he has a pace and can change direction at ease. Almost like a young Kieran Read. You will see this as he develops. What is best position is we are not sure, we were surprised last year they used him at lock as much as they did as his height and player type seems to more suit six. Early on he played seven a lot also, but we hear he is getting lined up as an 8 in the young Kieran Read mould where he could play tight or loose depending on the game plan. Saying all this, he is still 20, so I might favour a Tom Robinson yet if he continues to develop.
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@Toddy Hi Toddy, I have seen Cullen play weekly since he was 13 and he is a ball runner as well. After that game vs the Blues when he was man of the match, you would have noticed the next week the Crusaders did use him a slightly different way as a runner. The beauty of Cullen is his brain first, then his athleticism, he understands game plans when others do not and can adjust his game accordingly. He is exceptionally rugby bright, one best players I have seen or worked with in this regard. This is why the Crusaders like him and players similar to him. His ball running is immense and he has a pace and can change direction at ease. Almost like a young Kieran Read. You will see this as he develops. What is best position is we are not sure, we were surprised last year they used him at lock as much as they did as his height and player type seems to more suit six. Early on he played seven a lot also, but we hear he is getting lined up as an 8 in the young Kieran Read mould where he could play tight or loose depending on the game plan. Saying all this, he is still 20, so I might favour a Tom Robinson yet if he continues to develop.
@erps said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Saying all this, he is still 20, so I might favour a Tom Robinson yet if he continues to develop.
great post,
just my flogging a dead horse moment, that young forwards often fade as it takes a few years for the body to accommodate the physicality of top level competition. It's just grinding, and without proper offseasons, can be really hard to get used to. Injuries and loss of form are real, and you have to be managed
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Totally agree, what surprised me at the World Cup was the two young England flankers and how good they were. Superb talents but how long can they keep that up as they age playing the amount they have to over there. I think we often forget about when were 20 -24 ourselves and the maturity/lack of maturity we had. Not many of us grow up to 25 plus do we but then we criticise a young player for a couple or errors. For a lot of them this is first couple years away from parents and teachers protecting them from the big wide world. Often they have never been criticised or dropped and just pandered to by all but are now not. Kaino took 4-5 years, Brooke was 29 before he was a regular and so on with others. This is why I think Jordie Barrett will eventually get there but it make take a couple of years of pruning the rose so to speak.
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Totally agree, what surprised me at the World Cup was the two young England flankers and how good they were. Superb talents but how long can they keep that up as they age playing the amount they have to over there. I think we often forget about when were 20 -24 ourselves and the maturity/lack of maturity we had. Not many of us grow up to 25 plus do we but then we criticise a young player for a couple or errors. For a lot of them this is first couple years away from parents and teachers protecting them from the big wide world. Often they have never been criticised or dropped and just pandered to by all but are now not. Kaino took 4-5 years, Brooke was 29 before he was a regular and so on with others. This is why I think Jordie Barrett will eventually get there but it make take a couple of years of pruning the rose so to speak.
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just reflecting on Sam Cane. It's been a while since the AB captain wasn't a point of difference, the kind of guy most fans want on their teams. Most international fans, with some justification, would not see Cane as an upgrade on their current 7.
We all know and respect what Cane brings to the ABs, but he's a role player rather than a standout. It's a bit of a difference after the Tana-Richie-Read years (and that's a lot of years).
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just reflecting on Sam Cane. It's been a while since the AB captain wasn't a point of difference, the kind of guy most fans want on their teams. Most international fans, with some justification, would not see Cane as an upgrade on their current 7.
We all know and respect what Cane brings to the ABs, but he's a role player rather than a standout. It's a bit of a difference after the Tana-Richie-Read years (and that's a lot of years).
@mariner4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
just reflecting on Sam Cane. It's been a while since the AB captain wasn't a point of difference, the kind of guy most fans want on their teams. Most international fans, with some justification, would not see Cane as an upgrade on their current 7.
You thought Read was a standout and point of difference when he was captain?
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@mariner4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
just reflecting on Sam Cane. It's been a while since the AB captain wasn't a point of difference, the kind of guy most fans want on their teams. Most international fans, with some justification, would not see Cane as an upgrade on their current 7.
You thought Read was a standout and point of difference when he was captain?
@nzzp said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@mariner4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
just reflecting on Sam Cane. It's been a while since the AB captain wasn't a point of difference, the kind of guy most fans want on their teams. Most international fans, with some justification, would not see Cane as an upgrade on their current 7.
You thought Read was a standout and point of difference when he was captain?
initially, yes. It's only a couple of years since he and Retallic were the added extras that made our pack go from good to great. I can't remember the game, i think it was Bledisloe, where Aus matched us up front, except for the extra bits those two provided.
Last 2 years? Not so much. He was lucky he was the skipper, and there was literally no one else
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I'm going to get crucified for this but
Ardie Savea is a luxury player at test level against most sides. He's dynamic, good on the run after contact on the fringes, and not bad over the ball. He'll look fantastic in loose games against Australia with their ordinary pack, or teams we are just better than.
Unfortunately test rugby is at least 60 minutes of trench warfare. Mainly played between the 22s, or if it gets close to the line, in close to the ruck. It's aerial kicks, and trying to breach the gain line through force. A Savea is not suited to that game style. S Cane is perfectly suited to it.
A Savea off the bench is a great use of resources, and shouldn't be viewed as a slight. S Cane should start every big test he is available for, and that makes him perfect captaincy material
@mariner4life I might have agreed with you a year and a half ago when Ardie was still finding his feet and developing his game, especially on the test scene. However, last year he came on in leaps and bounds and showed he could matchup physically to anyone in the game, both defensivley and in the trenches so to speak, hence why he was named player of the year. I think that WC round robin game against the Springboks was a true reflection of how far he has come, and I still don't think he's reached his peak yet.
The bench in my view isn't the best spot for Ardie anymore due to his experience and leadership in what will be a fairly green area for the All Black's. Having both Cane and Savea on the park at the same time is the only way I can see the All Black's getting the most out of both players. For instance if you match up Cane with two loose forwards that lack any speed or gamebreaking ability, then we start to look very ordinary. Ardie is X-factor, but he has proven with his ongoing development that he can do the dirty work aswell. It will be interesting to see how things develop over the next year or so and what Foster's game plan ends up being.
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@mariner4life I might have agreed with you a year and a half ago when Ardie was still finding his feet and developing his game, especially on the test scene. However, last year he came on in leaps and bounds and showed he could matchup physically to anyone in the game, both defensivley and in the trenches so to speak, hence why he was named player of the year. I think that WC round robin game against the Springboks was a true reflection of how far he has come, and I still don't think he's reached his peak yet.
The bench in my view isn't the best spot for Ardie anymore due to his experience and leadership in what will be a fairly green area for the All Black's. Having both Cane and Savea on the park at the same time is the only way I can see the All Black's getting the most out of both players. For instance if you match up Cane with two loose forwards that lack any speed or gamebreaking ability, then we start to look very ordinary. Ardie is X-factor, but he has proven with his ongoing development that he can do the dirty work aswell. It will be interesting to see how things develop over the next year or so and what Foster's game plan ends up being.
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@mariner4life I might have agreed with you a year and a half ago when Ardie was still finding his feet and developing his game, especially on the test scene. However, last year he came on in leaps and bounds and showed he could matchup physically to anyone in the game, both defensivley and in the trenches so to speak, hence why he was named player of the year. I think that WC round robin game against the Springboks was a true reflection of how far he has come, and I still don't think he's reached his peak yet.
The bench in my view isn't the best spot for Ardie anymore due to his experience and leadership in what will be a fairly green area for the All Black's. Having both Cane and Savea on the park at the same time is the only way I can see the All Black's getting the most out of both players. For instance if you match up Cane with two loose forwards that lack any speed or gamebreaking ability, then we start to look very ordinary. Ardie is X-factor, but he has proven with his ongoing development that he can do the dirty work aswell. It will be interesting to see how things develop over the next year or so and what Foster's game plan ends up being
Defensively a lot weaker than Cane.
Not as robust against very physical teams.
Ask England. -
@sparky said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Which test was Andrew Hore ABs captain for?
It was a club game.
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just reflecting on Sam Cane. It's been a while since the AB captain wasn't a point of difference, the kind of guy most fans want on their teams. Most international fans, with some justification, would not see Cane as an upgrade on their current 7.
We all know and respect what Cane brings to the ABs, but he's a role player rather than a standout. It's a bit of a difference after the Tana-Richie-Read years (and that's a lot of years).
@mariner4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
just reflecting on Sam Cane. It's been a while since the AB captain wasn't a point of difference, the kind of guy most fans want on their teams. Most international fans, with some justification, would not see Cane as an upgrade on their current 7.
That's because most of them are halfwits who think Pocock was god's gift to flankers. You'll never see Cane look up to see a Kaino in front of him and shovel the ball on in fear.
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@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@mariner4life I might have agreed with you a year and a half ago when Ardie was still finding his feet and developing his game, especially on the test scene. However, last year he came on in leaps and bounds and showed he could matchup physically to anyone in the game, both defensivley and in the trenches so to speak, hence why he was named player of the year. I think that WC round robin game against the Springboks was a true reflection of how far he has come, and I still don't think he's reached his peak yet.
The bench in my view isn't the best spot for Ardie anymore due to his experience and leadership in what will be a fairly green area for the All Black's. Having both Cane and Savea on the park at the same time is the only way I can see the All Black's getting the most out of both players. For instance if you match up Cane with two loose forwards that lack any speed or gamebreaking ability, then we start to look very ordinary. Ardie is X-factor, but he has proven with his ongoing development that he can do the dirty work aswell. It will be interesting to see how things develop over the next year or so and what Foster's game plan ends up being
Defensively a lot weaker than Cane.
Not as robust against very physical teams.
Ask England.@Frank Cane is a lot weaker than Ardie in most other facets. Your point? All players have their strengths and weaknesses. Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
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@Frank Cane is a lot weaker than Ardie in most other facets. Your point? All players have their strengths and weaknesses. Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Frank Cane is a lot weaker than Ardie in most other facets. Your point? All players have their strengths and weaknesses. Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
England didn't score any tries when Cane was on the field ...
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@Frank Cane is a lot weaker than Ardie in most other facets. Your point? All players have their strengths and weaknesses. Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
He only did the second highest amount of tackles in the whole team at 95% success rate. What were you watching?
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@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
He only did the second highest amount of tackles in the whole team at 95% success rate. What were you watching?
@antipodean said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
He only did the second highest amount of tackles in the whole team at 95% success rate. What were you watching?
He's no flash Harry, but he does a huge amount of the grunt work
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@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
He only did the second highest amount of tackles in the whole team at 95% success rate. What were you watching?
@antipodean said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
He only did the second highest amount of tackles in the whole team at 95% success rate. What were you watching?
when you have your yellow goggles on...
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@antipodean said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
He only did the second highest amount of tackles in the whole team at 95% success rate. What were you watching?
when you have your yellow goggles on...
@mariner4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@antipodean said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Not like Cane dominanted against England either, in fact he didn’t really stand out during the World Cup at all.
He only did the second highest amount of tackles in the whole team at 95% success rate. What were you watching?
when you have your yellow goggles on...
He should give the goggles to Ardie....
