Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain
-
@rotated said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@mariner4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
We all know and respect what Cane brings to the ABs, but he's a role player rather than a standout. It's a bit of a difference after the Tana-Richie-Read years (and that's a lot of years).
Tana? Never the clear best in his position world wide (BOD and Mortlock just out of the gate) and they didn’t skip a beat at centre in the following two seasons even with hyper rotation.
Read was super banged up to the point where you could reasonably say he wasn’t one of our top three lopsided.
McCaw kind of spoiled us, but shorter captaincy stints without the expectation of a full RWC cycle will hopefully become the norm.
That's a serious underrating of Tana, he was clearly the best centre by some distance in NZ and was definitely competitive with the two you mentioned.
And quite frankly we did struggle at centre until Smith got over his injury issues, it's preposterous to suggest otherwise.
I find it completely bonkers the underrating of Tana as a player in recent years (I have my suspicions it's due to his coaching record) and his captaincy served us well.
@Nepia said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
That's a serious underrating of Tana, he was clearly the best centre by some distance in NZ and was definitely competitive with the two you mentioned.
And quite frankly we did struggle at centre until Smith got over his injury issues, it's preposterous to suggest otherwise.
I find it completely bonkers the underrating of Tana as a player in recent years (I have my suspicions it's due to his coaching record) and his captaincy served us well.
I'm not sure how that is underrating Tana. He certainly was the best centre in NZ by a decent margin for a long time and you could have a reasonable debate vs BOD or Mortlock. But that is the point. There was never any real (serious) debate about the likes of McCaw, Fitzy or early Read during their captaincies against their opposites. I'm not saying he is Randell/Thorne/Blackadder where they wouldn't have a spot in the team if it were their captaincy.
I find it equally staggering how Umaga gets casually thrown in with Lomu, Wilson and Cullen or Nonu/Smith - entirely different tiers. I'm sure you will disagree but for me he is closer to the Robin Brooke/Marshall/Ian Jones/Walter Little level of AB than any of those.
Cane is probably right where Umaga was when he became skipper. Recently shafted by selection in the RWC semi-final plus being a long tenured automatic selection and consistent contributor who has just happened to been overshadowed by some all time great players around him. Both are probably underrated by the world media.
-
@Nepia said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
That's a serious underrating of Tana, he was clearly the best centre by some distance in NZ and was definitely competitive with the two you mentioned.
And quite frankly we did struggle at centre until Smith got over his injury issues, it's preposterous to suggest otherwise.
I find it completely bonkers the underrating of Tana as a player in recent years (I have my suspicions it's due to his coaching record) and his captaincy served us well.
I'm not sure how that is underrating Tana. He certainly was the best centre in NZ by a decent margin for a long time and you could have a reasonable debate vs BOD or Mortlock. But that is the point. There was never any real (serious) debate about the likes of McCaw, Fitzy or early Read during their captaincies against their opposites. I'm not saying he is Randell/Thorne/Blackadder where they wouldn't have a spot in the team if it were their captaincy.
I find it equally staggering how Umaga gets casually thrown in with Lomu, Wilson and Cullen or Nonu/Smith - entirely different tiers. I'm sure you will disagree but for me he is closer to the Robin Brooke/Marshall/Ian Jones/Walter Little level of AB than any of those.
Cane is probably right where Umaga was when he became skipper. Recently shafted by selection in the RWC semi-final plus being a long tenured automatic selection and consistent contributor who has just happened to been overshadowed by some all time great players around him. Both are probably underrated by the world media.
@rotated said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Nepia said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
That's a serious underrating of Tana, he was clearly the best centre by some distance in NZ and was definitely competitive with the two you mentioned.
And quite frankly we did struggle at centre until Smith got over his injury issues, it's preposterous to suggest otherwise.
I find it completely bonkers the underrating of Tana as a player in recent years (I have my suspicions it's due to his coaching record) and his captaincy served us well.
I'm not sure how that is underrating Tana. He certainly was the best centre in NZ by a decent margin for a long time and you could have a reasonable debate vs BOD or Mortlock. But that is the point. There was never any real (serious) debate about the likes of McCaw, Fitzy or early Read during their captaincies against their opposites. I'm not saying he is Randell/Thorne/Blackadder where they wouldn't have a spot in the team if it were their captaincy.
I find it equally staggering how Umaga gets casually thrown in with Lomu, Wilson and Cullen or Nonu/Smith - entirely different tiers. I'm sure you will disagree but for me he is closer to the Robin Brooke/Marshall/Ian Jones/Walter Little level of AB than any of those.
Cane is probably right where Umaga was when he became skipper. Recently shafted by selection in the RWC semi-final plus being a long tenured automatic selection and consistent contributor who has just happened to been overshadowed by some all time great players around him. Both are probably underrated by the world media.
Tana wasn't no 1 world centre for most of his latter career, but there was one season where even Stephen Jones had him in his world team over BOD. Similar in some ways to Conrad, whose star rose and fell in NH. Both in Planet Rugby last 4 (with BOD and Wizard) for best of professional era.
-
I think Tana's worth only really shone through when he became captain.
As you say he was overshadowed by some of the best players ever but was really only a hairs breadth behind them.
79 games in black across 4 positions, played well in all of them, Captained a series win against the Lions, scored 37 tries despite having Lomu, Cullen, Wilson, Rok and Howlett on the field with him.
Don't forget his defensive work either. Laid down the blueprint for every back to follow in an expectation to not only organise and tackle but to play like a flanker once the tackle was made. No coach came up with that. Tana's tenacity did.
It was that second Lions test that was the making of his real legacy though IMO. First PI captain, under the pump from all quarters. Showed everyone, including players to come that an AB jersey is something to stand up for. I don't think it is a stretch to say that his actions and behaviour as an AB captain added a lot to a greater acceptance of the PI population and contribution to NZ. Showed that they aren't just an add on part, but are proud kiwis as well.
I will never forget him leading the first ever showing of Kapa O Pango. Passion like I've never seen from an AB captain before.
He is up there easily on my list of all-time favourite ABs and (without working out a list) must easily be in a top 20 AB greats list.
One of our best.Oh, and he coached Counties to their first ever Shield
-
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@antipodean people forget that John Plumtree is in the coaching setup, he won't let Ardie sit on the pine and knows full well he's too good to leave out, so it's up to Foster to find an appropriate 6.
It’s this sort of blatant provincial/franchise bias that I can’t stand.
@ACT-Crusader neither do I and thankfully Plumtree isn’t that sort of bloke, but he is the sort of bloke that will reward effort and form and that will play into Ardie’s hands after his performances last year. That, and the fact we have no real other world-class options in the loosies, other than Cane.
-
I would think that the selectors would have been enjoying what Boshier was showing. Not just on a skill and energy level but the way that he consistently comes up with big plays at critical moments. The tougher the situation the more he seemed to focus. That is a great attribute for test rugby and something that GOAT had.
Unfortunately I can't see him being in the plans as a 6. They will want a bit more size and dominance there. -
I would think that the selectors would have been enjoying what Boshier was showing. Not just on a skill and energy level but the way that he consistently comes up with big plays at critical moments. The tougher the situation the more he seemed to focus. That is a great attribute for test rugby and something that GOAT had.
Unfortunately I can't see him being in the plans as a 6. They will want a bit more size and dominance there.@Crucial I was a big fan of Boshier before this break, he was probably the form forward of the comp. Certainly showed what he is capable of and I would certainly have him in contention - maybe first reserve if Cane or Savea go down.
-
Was Boshier the flanker who played against the Canes before lockdown? The one who stands off the ruck looking for the turnover while Cane makes a sh*tload of tackles to compensate?
@Toddy said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
The one who stands off the ruck looking for the turnover while Cane makes a sh*tload of tackles to compensate?
swap Cane for an Aussie, and that's Pocock
But in fairness, I think Boshier did more around the paddock too (without watching him too closely)
-
Boshier has had more turnovers than a bakery this year. Maybe that's the role the Chiefs want him to play.
-
Boshier has had more turnovers than a bakery this year. Maybe that's the role the Chiefs want him to play.
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Boshier has had more turnovers than a bakery this year. Maybe that's the role the Chiefs want him to play.
you should be writing for a major paper with lines like that
-
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Boshier has had more turnovers than a bakery this year. Maybe that's the role the Chiefs want him to play.
you should be writing for a major paper with lines like that
@nzzp said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Boshier has had more turnovers than a bakery this year. Maybe that's the role the Chiefs want him to play.
you should be writing for a major paper with lines like that
It would sound terrific coming out of the late great Bill McLarens mouth.
-
Boshier has had more turnovers than a bakery this year. Maybe that's the role the Chiefs want him to play.
@Canes4life said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
Boshier has had more turnovers than a bakery this year. Maybe that's the role the Chiefs want him to play.
I think it is a changeable role based on the situation. Certainly the have a one-two punch going. If they can work out on the fly for one to track the other and time a jackal that is great.
The Pocock way was just to hang around. Boshier does the work when required as well. That's why his turnovers seem to be mainly at critical times. He swaps into that role when they need a turnover to shut down danger or are under pressure. -
It's a pity that Boshier isn't in this list.
@Stargazer Christie was getting through a truckload of work, I wonder if he could have kept that up over the season?
-
@Stargazer Christie was getting through a truckload of work, I wonder if he could have kept that up over the season?
-
@Nepia Yeah, I guess we'll have to wait a while to find out. He seems to have a big engine, but Billy Harmon had just returned from injury, so they might have started rotating them more if the comp had continued.
@Stargazer said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Nepia Yeah, I guess we'll have to wait a while to find out. He seems to have a big engine, but Billy Harmon had just returned from injury, so they might have started rotating them more if the comp had continued.
His turnaround in form from last year was quite impressive. Seems like Razor gave him the confidence to go out and play this year.
-
@Stargazer said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Nepia Yeah, I guess we'll have to wait a while to find out. He seems to have a big engine, but Billy Harmon had just returned from injury, so they might have started rotating them more if the comp had continued.
His turnaround in form from last year was quite impressive. Seems like Razor gave him the confidence to go out and play this year.
-
@Stargazer said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Nepia Last year? This is Christie's first SR season. Or do you mean Mitre 10 Cup?
NPC and U20s.
-
@Stargazer said in Sam Cane - All Blacks Captain:
@Nepia Last year? This is Christie's first SR season. Or do you mean Mitre 10 Cup?
NPC and U20s.
@Nepia Yeah, he wasn't very inspiring during the 2018 JWC, but I'm convinced that Phillpott isn't capable of getting the best out of players. The same probably applies to Joe Maddock at Canterbury.
Can't wait to see how many of NZ's rookies progress over the next few years.
Obviously I'm biased, but I expect Devan Flanders to be in the flankers mix, too, in the near future. He needs to keep Prinsep out of the Canes' 6 jersey first though. -
@Nepia Yeah, he wasn't very inspiring during the 2018 JWC, but I'm convinced that Phillpott isn't capable of getting the best out of players. The same probably applies to Joe Maddock at Canterbury.
Can't wait to see how many of NZ's rookies progress over the next few years.
Obviously I'm biased, but I expect Devan Flanders to be in the flankers mix, too, in the near future. He needs to keep Prinsep out of the Canes' 6 jersey first though.@Stargazer Do you see Flanders as a 6 or an 8 at this stage?
