AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?
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@junior said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@cgrant said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
The 13 jersey should be for Goodhue or Rieko Ioane.
Have to disagree. The last thing we need is another 4 years of buggering about with midfield combinations. Stick with Goodhue/ALB and build the understanding.
That said, I'd want Reiko in the squad covering 11, 13 & 14. He had a shit 2019 in black but is just too a player to abandon.
I agree that the ALB / Goodhue midfield is our best currently, but I wonder if they are a bit samey. Would our midfield be better served, in the longer-term, with someone else in the 12 or 13 jersey? Neither of them are real bruisers. Nor are they super quick with the ability to skin someone on the outside. Neither of them is a second play-maker who can take some of the load off our 10.
All fair points.
Not saying Fozzie shouldn't try things out and develop more midfield talent, but we need to have some sort of settled combination as a baseline. ALB is a class player but has never been able to settle in a position at Test level, IMHO.
@Victor-Meldrew said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
ALB is a class player but has never been able to settle in a position at Test level, IMHO.
Despite having a personal chip on my shoulder about the Chiefs, ALB is absolutely outstanding and should be a starter wherever you squeeze him.
My addled memory is that he was one of our best at the RWC. Hopefully Fozzie can unlock our midfield AND PICK A SETTLED GODDAMN COMBINATION
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@Victor-Meldrew said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
ALB is a class player but has never been able to settle in a position at Test level, IMHO.
Despite having a personal chip on my shoulder about the Chiefs, ALB is absolutely outstanding and should be a starter wherever you squeeze him.
My addled memory is that he was one of our best at the RWC. Hopefully Fozzie can unlock our midfield AND PICK A SETTLED GODDAMN COMBINATION
@nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
My addled memory is that he was one of our best at the RWC.
Like his commitment as well. A lot of other players would have taken the big spondoolies in Japan or France if they'd been mucked about like he seems to have been.
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@nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
My addled memory is that he was one of our best at the RWC.
Like his commitment as well. A lot of other players would have taken the big spondoolies in Japan or France if they'd been mucked about like he seems to have been.
@Victor-Meldrew said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
My addled memory is that he was one of our best at the RWC.
Like his commitment as well. A lot of other players would have taken the big spondoolies in Japan or France if they'd been mucked about like he seems to have been.
Love it, I'm learning new words most days:D
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@Victor-Meldrew said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@cgrant said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
The 13 jersey should be for Goodhue or Rieko Ioane.
Have to disagree. The last thing we need is another 4 years of buggering about with midfield combinations. Stick with Goodhue/ALB and build the understanding.
That said, I'd want Reiko in the squad covering 11, 13 & 14. He had a shit 2019 in black but is just too a player to abandon.
I agree that the ALB / Goodhue midfield is our best currently, but I wonder if they are a bit samey. Would our midfield be better served, in the longer-term, with someone else in the 12 or 13 jersey? Neither of them are real bruisers. Nor are they super quick with the ability to skin someone on the outside. Neither of them is a second play-maker who can take some of the load off our 10.
@junior said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@cgrant said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
The 13 jersey should be for Goodhue or Rieko Ioane.
Have to disagree. The last thing we need is another 4 years of buggering about with midfield combinations. Stick with Goodhue/ALB and build the understanding.
That said, I'd want Reiko in the squad covering 11, 13 & 14. He had a shit 2019 in black but is just too a player to abandon.
I agree that the ALB / Goodhue midfield is our best currently, but I wonder if they are a bit samey. Would our midfield be better served, in the longer-term, with someone else in the 12 or 13 jersey? Neither of them are real bruisers. Nor are they super quick with the ability to skin someone on the outside. Neither of them is a second play-maker who can take some of the load off our 10.
While i agree in theory, we tend to use the 15 as our second playmaker these days. Add to that Aaron Smith at 9 and I would argue we don’t need another “playmaker” in midfield.
I think we mainly need guys who can make good decisions, not get smashed backwards in defence or attack and clean up messy situations/provide a bailout option to take the pressure off the 10. Setting up the wingers with a well timed pass, running good support lines and not leaving big holes in defence i would have under the good decisions banner.Being a wrecking ball is great. Nonu could do it all but SBW and Laumape sacrificed a bit in other areas to achieve that.
Pace to skin someone on the outside is also great but not at the expense of the rest. When was the last centre we had who could do that?
Until someone who is clearly better comes along i am happy we have ALB and Goodhue around to form that midfield partnership.
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@junior the resurgence of ALB last year seemed to coincide with him getting a lot of the pace back that he used to have - when he used to be capable of playing wing.
I see where you're coming from though...Josh Ioane at 12? Or just Mounga shuffles out to make room for Mitch Hunt.
@Bones said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@junior the resurgence of ALB last year seemed to coincide with him getting a lot of the pace back that he used to have - when he used to be capable of playing wing.
I see where you're coming from though...Josh Ioane at 12? Or just Mounga shuffles out to make room for Mitch Hunt.
I think either of those options would work quite well. It may even turn out better for everyone to have Hunt at 10 and Ioane at 12 with either Goodhue or ALB at 13.
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My take, for what it's worth, is that ALB and Goodhue is a good but not great midfield. The kind that will look a million bucks when we are on top and beating a team, but when shit gets really tough, won't create much by themselves.
There isn't much point having the next Conrad Smith if he's not playing outside the next Nonu.
Ioane's extra pace could be the key weapon we are looking for to unlock top level test defenses. In which case I would look at someone smart and robust at 12, which could be Goodhue.
We need to find the right mix with a good combination of attributes. It'll take a bit of juggling to find it though unfortunately.
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@junior said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@cgrant said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
The 13 jersey should be for Goodhue or Rieko Ioane.
Have to disagree. The last thing we need is another 4 years of buggering about with midfield combinations. Stick with Goodhue/ALB and build the understanding.
That said, I'd want Reiko in the squad covering 11, 13 & 14. He had a shit 2019 in black but is just too a player to abandon.
I agree that the ALB / Goodhue midfield is our best currently, but I wonder if they are a bit samey. Would our midfield be better served, in the longer-term, with someone else in the 12 or 13 jersey? Neither of them are real bruisers. Nor are they super quick with the ability to skin someone on the outside. Neither of them is a second play-maker who can take some of the load off our 10.
While i agree in theory, we tend to use the 15 as our second playmaker these days. Add to that Aaron Smith at 9 and I would argue we don’t need another “playmaker” in midfield.
I think we mainly need guys who can make good decisions, not get smashed backwards in defence or attack and clean up messy situations/provide a bailout option to take the pressure off the 10. Setting up the wingers with a well timed pass, running good support lines and not leaving big holes in defence i would have under the good decisions banner.Being a wrecking ball is great. Nonu could do it all but SBW and Laumape sacrificed a bit in other areas to achieve that.
Pace to skin someone on the outside is also great but not at the expense of the rest. When was the last centre we had who could do that?
Until someone who is clearly better comes along i am happy we have ALB and Goodhue around to form that midfield partnership.
@pukunui said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@junior said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@cgrant said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
The 13 jersey should be for Goodhue or Rieko Ioane.
Have to disagree. The last thing we need is another 4 years of buggering about with midfield combinations. Stick with Goodhue/ALB and build the understanding.
That said, I'd want Reiko in the squad covering 11, 13 & 14. He had a shit 2019 in black but is just too a player to abandon.
I agree that the ALB / Goodhue midfield is our best currently, but I wonder if they are a bit samey. Would our midfield be better served, in the longer-term, with someone else in the 12 or 13 jersey? Neither of them are real bruisers. Nor are they super quick with the ability to skin someone on the outside. Neither of them is a second play-maker who can take some of the load off our 10.
While i agree in theory, we tend to use the 15 as our second playmaker these days. Add to that Aaron Smith at 9 and I would argue we don’t need another “playmaker” in midfield.
I think we mainly need guys who can make good decisions, not get smashed backwards in defence or attack and clean up messy situations/provide a bailout option to take the pressure off the 10. Setting up the wingers with a well timed pass, running good support lines and not leaving big holes in defence i would have under the good decisions banner.Being a wrecking ball is great. Nonu could do it all but SBW and Laumape sacrificed a bit in other areas to achieve that.
Pace to skin someone on the outside is also great but not at the expense of the rest. When was the last centre we had who could do that?
Until someone who is clearly better comes along i am happy we have ALB and Goodhue around to form that midfield partnership.
I agree with all this, which is why I said that they are currently our best midfield combination. My concern is that our midfield is a bit samey, perhaps lacking a bit balance and not bruising enough. I'm not advocating for a Laumape type here (although I think he potentially adds something useful for some match situations), but I think most would agree that we lack physicality across our backline generally. If our 9, 10 and 15 are going to be our skilful, but not physical guys, then - for balance - we need some power in our midfield. This is particularly the case where against some teams we will inevitably struggle to get really good forward momentum from our pack - it needs to come from somewhere else on the park.
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@Bones said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@junior the resurgence of ALB last year seemed to coincide with him getting a lot of the pace back that he used to have - when he used to be capable of playing wing.
I see where you're coming from though...Josh Ioane at 12? Or just Mounga shuffles out to make room for Mitch Hunt.
I think either of those options would work quite well. It may even turn out better for everyone to have Hunt at 10 and Ioane at 12 with either Goodhue or ALB at 13.
@junior said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@Bones said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@junior the resurgence of ALB last year seemed to coincide with him getting a lot of the pace back that he used to have - when he used to be capable of playing wing.
I see where you're coming from though...Josh Ioane at 12? Or just Mounga shuffles out to make room for Mitch Hunt.
I think either of those options would work quite well. It may even turn out better for everyone to have Hunt at 10 and Ioane at 12 with either Goodhue or ALB at 13.
You'd probably want a bit of a smasher that can run good lines I reckon. Anyone heard Matchbox 20's greatest hits?
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@Victor-Meldrew said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
My addled memory is that he was one of our best at the RWC.
Like his commitment as well. A lot of other players would have taken the big spondoolies in Japan or France if they'd been mucked about like he seems to have been.
Love it, I'm learning new words most days:D
@nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@Victor-Meldrew said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
My addled memory is that he was one of our best at the RWC.
Like his commitment as well. A lot of other players would have taken the big spondoolies in Japan or France if they'd been mucked about like he seems to have been.
Love it, I'm learning new words most days:D
I prefer the traditional spondoolicks, rather than the crass modern shortened version
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My take, for what it's worth, is that ALB and Goodhue is a good but not great midfield. The kind that will look a million bucks when we are on top and beating a team, but when shit gets really tough, won't create much by themselves.
There isn't much point having the next Conrad Smith if he's not playing outside the next Nonu.
Ioane's extra pace could be the key weapon we are looking for to unlock top level test defenses. In which case I would look at someone smart and robust at 12, which could be Goodhue.
We need to find the right mix with a good combination of attributes. It'll take a bit of juggling to find it though unfortunately.
@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
My take, for what it's worth, is that ALB and Goodhue is a good but not great midfield. The kind that will look a million bucks when we are on top and beating a team, but when shit gets really tough, won't create much by themselves.
There isn't much point having the next Conrad Smith if he's not playing outside the next Nonu.
Ioane's extra pace could be the key weapon we are looking for to unlock top level test defenses. In which case I would look at someone smart and robust at 12, which could be Goodhue.
We need to find the right mix with a good combination of attributes. It'll take a bit of juggling to find it though unfortunately.
Interesting post, but I'm not convinced that it should be Goodhue ahead of ALB.
Having said that, ALB has been brilliant coming off the bench, so testing both combinations sounds worthwhile.
I do like the idea of seeing whether Ioane is international class in the midfield, but if he isn't, he should be at 11 or 14.
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My take, for what it's worth, is that ALB and Goodhue is a good but not great midfield. The kind that will look a million bucks when we are on top and beating a team, but when shit gets really tough, won't create much by themselves.
There isn't much point having the next Conrad Smith if he's not playing outside the next Nonu.
Ioane's extra pace could be the key weapon we are looking for to unlock top level test defenses. In which case I would look at someone smart and robust at 12, which could be Goodhue.
We need to find the right mix with a good combination of attributes. It'll take a bit of juggling to find it though unfortunately.
@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
My take, for what it's worth, is that ALB and Goodhue is a good but not great midfield. The kind that will look a million bucks when we are on top and beating a team, but when shit gets really tough, won't create much by themselves.
I'd argue we don't know how good the ALB/Goodhue combo is going to be until we've actually used it in more than a handful of test matches. Neither of them exhibit the regular brain-farts we saw from SBW when things got tough.
Ioane's extra pace could be the key weapon we are looking for to unlock top level test defenses. In which case I would look at someone smart and robust at 12, which could be Goodhue
Fair point. So let's try him out once we have a fairly settled 12/13 combo to compare him to.
We need to find the right mix with a good combination of attributes. It'll take a bit of juggling to find it though unfortunately.
Haven't we been doing that for the last four years?
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@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
My take, for what it's worth, is that ALB and Goodhue is a good but not great midfield. The kind that will look a million bucks when we are on top and beating a team, but when shit gets really tough, won't create much by themselves.
There isn't much point having the next Conrad Smith if he's not playing outside the next Nonu.
Ioane's extra pace could be the key weapon we are looking for to unlock top level test defenses. In which case I would look at someone smart and robust at 12, which could be Goodhue.
We need to find the right mix with a good combination of attributes. It'll take a bit of juggling to find it though unfortunately.
Interesting post, but I'm not convinced that it should be Goodhue ahead of ALB.
Having said that, ALB has been brilliant coming off the bench, so testing both combinations sounds worthwhile.
I do like the idea of seeing whether Ioane is international class in the midfield, but if he isn't, he should be at 11 or 14.
@gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
I do like the idea of seeing whether Ioane is international class in the midfield, but if he isn't, he should be at 11 or 14.
Nonu failed his first test in the midfield early doors - had a massive miss on BOD in Hamilton I believe, and let them in for a try. Center is a tough position, and I think you can't rush it. He could be superb of course - Tana made that transition and was dynamite in both places
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@gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
I do like the idea of seeing whether Ioane is international class in the midfield, but if he isn't, he should be at 11 or 14.
Nonu failed his first test in the midfield early doors - had a massive miss on BOD in Hamilton I believe, and let them in for a try. Center is a tough position, and I think you can't rush it. He could be superb of course - Tana made that transition and was dynamite in both places
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@gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
I do like the idea of seeing whether Ioane is international class in the midfield, but if he isn't, he should be at 11 or 14.
Nonu failed his first test in the midfield early doors - had a massive miss on BOD in Hamilton I believe, and let them in for a try. Center is a tough position, and I think you can't rush it. He could be superb of course - Tana made that transition and was dynamite in both places
@nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@gt12 said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
I do like the idea of seeing whether Ioane is international class in the midfield, but if he isn't, he should be at 11 or 14.
Nonu failed his first test in the midfield early doors - had a massive miss on BOD in Hamilton I believe, and let them in for a try. Center is a tough position, and I think you can't rush it. He could be superb of course - Tana made that transition and was dynamite in both places
That was actually a few years after he first made the ABs, which I think makes your point stronger as it takes time to develop a quality test midfielder.
Nonu’s first test was that England loss at home in 2003. He partnered with Tana in the midfield. We really couldn’t get much going that day - across the board.
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Nonu didn't always play in the midfield for Wellington. In the 2006 NPC final, for example, he was on the left wing. He was used as a sub as often as a 12/13 in the next 4 years after his AB debut.
@Bovidae said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
Nonu didn't always play in the midfield for Wellington. In the 2006 NPC final, for example, he was on the left wing. He was used as a sub as often as a 12/13 in the next 4 years after his AB debut.
All his early matches were at wing for the Canes
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@Bovidae said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
Nonu didn't always play in the midfield for Wellington. In the 2006 NPC final, for example, he was on the left wing. He was used as a sub as often as a 12/13 in the next 4 years after his AB debut.
All his early matches were at wing for the Canes
@canefan said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@Bovidae said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
Nonu didn't always play in the midfield for Wellington. In the 2006 NPC final, for example, he was on the left wing. He was used as a sub as often as a 12/13 in the next 4 years after his AB debut.
All his early matches were at wing for the Canes
Against Ireland in Ireland early on in his career I remember him coming on as a sub, running 50m, being people with power and pace, chipping, regathering and then knocking on in goal. Would have been one of the all time great tries.
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@canefan said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@Bovidae said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
Nonu didn't always play in the midfield for Wellington. In the 2006 NPC final, for example, he was on the left wing. He was used as a sub as often as a 12/13 in the next 4 years after his AB debut.
All his early matches were at wing for the Canes
Against Ireland in Ireland early on in his career I remember him coming on as a sub, running 50m, being people with power and pace, chipping, regathering and then knocking on in goal. Would have been one of the all time great tries.
@nzzp said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@canefan said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
@Bovidae said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
Nonu didn't always play in the midfield for Wellington. In the 2006 NPC final, for example, he was on the left wing. He was used as a sub as often as a 12/13 in the next 4 years after his AB debut.
All his early matches were at wing for the Canes
Against Ireland in Ireland early on in his career I remember him coming on as a sub, running 50m, being people with power and pace, chipping, regathering and then knocking on in goal. Would have been one of the all time great tries.
Was that the same Ireland match he got carded?
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My take, for what it's worth, is that ALB and Goodhue is a good but not great midfield. The kind that will look a million bucks when we are on top and beating a team, but when shit gets really tough, won't create much by themselves.
There isn't much point having the next Conrad Smith if he's not playing outside the next Nonu.
Ioane's extra pace could be the key weapon we are looking for to unlock top level test defenses. In which case I would look at someone smart and robust at 12, which could be Goodhue.
We need to find the right mix with a good combination of attributes. It'll take a bit of juggling to find it though unfortunately.
@mariner4life said in AB squad for the Bledisloe Cup?:
My take, for what it's worth, is that ALB and Goodhue is a good but not great midfield. The kind that will look a million bucks when we are on top and beating a team, but when shit gets really tough, won't create much by themselves.
I think you can extend that across much of the team that lost to England. We had lots of good solid international players - but, not enough who were capable of the extraordinary. I think that's why we had to go with the Mo'unga-Barrett two playmakers thing - because , they were two of the very few we had capable of busting open the most meticulous defences.
Beyond them, I'd say Ardie Savea meets that standard. Big Brodie usually does, but he was a shadow of his best self. And maybe Sevu Reece. Everyone else was more a role player - solid, but not demanding of extra-special attention.
Compare that to 2015 when we had major threats across the park - maybe eight or nine guys who needed special attention.
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Bearing in mind the results of that player poll about the best wing in NZ, and that most of the people being touted as the potential AB wings were playing in this game - you'd have to say that the somewhat-maligned George Bridge answered his critics.
If this was an old-school AB trial, I'd pick Bridge and Ioane as the two wings (ignoring considerations of who plays left and right).
