'Super Rugby' 2021
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@Snowy said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@barbarian said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
I love how in this debate all Australian teams have become 'cannon fodder', rather than the reality of 1-2 really good sides, 1-2 middling sides and 1-2 poor sides like us AND SA have been pretty much every year.
It is pretty much why super rugby wasn't "super" anymore. Over expanded and reduced the quality.
The powers that be and covid might be on track to fix that.
Yep!
How many of the expansion teams ever made the play-offs?
The Jaguares did.
I think the Cheetahs might have once.
Pretty sure none of the Force, Rebels, Southern Kings or Sunwolves ever did.
@Chris-B said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
The Jaguares did.
They were always going to. A strong national side and one team. A shame that Japan couldn't get there too because they really should have, but I guess the domestic competition countered it.
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@shark said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
The way this is unfolding, I'd prefer a Super Ten with five teams each from NZ and Australia. If Australia can't sort it's shit out and four or five of their sides are consistently just fodder for the NZ squads, then so be it. I just hope the Aussie viewers don't mind if they don't have any semi-finalists year on year.
The thing is - the Aussie viewers do mind.
And so do the NZ viewers - there's plenty of entertainment value in watching the Crusaders pump yet another Aussie team, but it's not compelling viewing.
We need to get back to something like Super 12, where everyone was competitive most years - or SH rugby will die on the vine. Oz appears already to be in deep shit and if they topple, we're left open to being picked off by NH. We can't afford charity teams like the Force. Tbh I've no idea how they'll afford a Pacifika team, but presumably someone has a plan.
@Chris-B We've won the competition twice in the last 10 years, both of those final wins being against the Crusaders. I'd point out that over the 25 year life of the competition the Crusaders have only lost a final against another NZ team once (the Blues). It's three times to Australian teams.
So if you think Super Rugby Aoteroa is gunna be 'more competitive' history suggests otherwise. Certainly, the Crusaders are going to walk away with the title this year.
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@Snowy there are loads of quality players in that list, many who would walk into the Wallabies. Sean McMahon, Skelton (European champion), Arnold x 2, Kerevi, Latu, etc etc. They may not all be test standard but the depth they would add to SR's would be huge and the player drain is the primary reason Australian rugby has slumped over the past 5 years.
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Snowy there are loads of quality players in that list, many who would walk into the Wallabies. Sean McMahon, Skelton (European champion), Arnold x 2, Kerevi, Latu, etc etc. They may not all be test standard but the depth they would add to SR's would be huge and the player drain is the primary reason Australian rugby has slumped over the past 5 years.
Sadly that is true for all of the Southern hemisphere teams, including the AB's.
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@Chris-B We've won the competition twice in the last 10 years, both of those final wins being against the Crusaders. I'd point out that over the 25 year life of the competition the Crusaders have only lost a final against another NZ team once (the Blues). It's three times to Australian teams.
So if you think Super Rugby Aoteroa is gunna be 'more competitive' history suggests otherwise. Certainly, the Crusaders are going to walk away with the title this year.
@Derpus It's not your best team that I'm worried about, it's the worst ones when you've got five - and the impact that dilution of your best teams has had, especially in recent times.
Which year was it where we got about through about two-thirds of the season before an Oz team beat an NZ one?
That's not good for anyone.
I think five teams in Oz has been pretty comprehensively tested and has been a clear failure.
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@Derpus It's not your best team that I'm worried about, it's the worst ones when you've got five - and the impact that dilution of your best teams has had, especially in recent times.
Which year was it where we got about through about two-thirds of the season before an Oz team beat an NZ one?
That's not good for anyone.
I think five teams in Oz has been pretty comprehensively tested and has been a clear failure.
@Chris-B It was post the 2015 WC which saw our biggest player exodus. To premise the future of an entire competition on a bad patch of about 2 years seems ridiculous, though our results and performance were terrible in that period.
Our next crop of players look far more promising, outperforming their NZ counterparts so far. Raelene put a lot of work into securing our talent before it got poached by loig and results had looked to be improving this season.
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@Chris-B It was post the 2015 WC which saw our biggest player exodus. To premise the future of an entire competition on a bad patch of about 2 years seems ridiculous, though our results and performance were terrible in that period.
Our next crop of players look far more promising, outperforming their NZ counterparts so far. Raelene put a lot of work into securing our talent before it got poached by loig and results had looked to be improving this season.
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Our next crop of players look far more promising, outperforming their NZ counterparts so far.
The first half of that sentence may be true, but how did you come to that conclusion in the second half of it?
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Gunner Under 20s results
Based on one year's u20s result. Let's just conveniently ignore the previous five years.
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@akan004 well, regardless, they are promising.
Yes, but won't make 5 strong super teams.
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@Snowy oh are we only allowed to select players for a single year group? you are intentionally missing my point.
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Snowy oh are we only allowed to select players for a single year group? you are intentionally missing my point.
No, I'm not. What is your point?
Do you believe that (as has been mentioned the previous 5 years failures) will build the depth for 5 super teams? -
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
@Snowy oh are we only allowed to select players for a single year group? you are intentionally missing my point.
No, I'm not. What is your point?
Do you believe that (as has been mentioned the previous 5 years failures) will build the depth for 5 super teams?@Snowy My point is that the dip in form post RWC15 was due to the player drain and that prior to that results had been reasonable. Following that, RC did work to secure talent pathways which is already reaping dividends and results had been improving. Hell, even the much derided Rebels beat the Highlanders away this year. The Brumbies also knocking off the in-form Chiefs.
To predicate the structure of the entire competition on the lack of performance post RWC15 would be silly, IMO. Particularly when the other 4 NZ teams have themselves not demonstrated that they can compete with the Crusaders on a regular basis anyway.
Im basically pointing out that the prevailing assumption that 'Aussie teams are all garbage' and 'NZ teams are amazing and constantly competitive' is pretty flawed.
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@Snowy My point is that the dip in form post RWC15 was due to the player drain and that prior to that results had been reasonable. Following that, RC did work to secure talent pathways which is already reaping dividends and results had been improving. Hell, even the much derided Rebels beat the Highlanders away this year. The Brumbies also knocking off the in-form Chiefs.
To predicate the structure of the entire competition on the lack of performance post RWC15 would be silly, IMO. Particularly when the other 4 NZ teams have themselves not demonstrated that they can compete with the Crusaders on a regular basis anyway.
Im basically pointing out that the prevailing assumption that 'Aussie teams are all garbage' and 'NZ teams are amazing and constantly competitive' is pretty flawed.
@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Im basically pointing out that the prevailing assumption that 'Aussie teams are all garbage' and 'NZ teams are amazing and constantly competitive' is pretty flawed.
Well we can agree on that.
I don't believe that Aus can make 5 competitive teams though. Three worked.
As for other NZ teams v Crusaders? Well they have sent the benchmark and it doesn't matter which countries franchises are measured against them. The Kiwi teams have done just fine against everybody else.
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@Derpus said in 'Super Rugby' 2021:
Im basically pointing out that the prevailing assumption that 'Aussie teams are all garbage' and 'NZ teams are amazing and constantly competitive' is pretty flawed.
Well we can agree on that.
I don't believe that Aus can make 5 competitive teams though. Three worked.
As for other NZ teams v Crusaders? Well they have sent the benchmark and it doesn't matter which countries franchises are measured against them. The Kiwi teams have done just fine against everybody else.
@Snowy this also brings me back to another point. Why does Australia have to have 5 competitive teams at any one point? NZ have very rarely put forward 5 teams that are all competitive at the same time.
Very few competitions ever have an even spread.
I can see the concern if one team consistently under performs, but as someone else pointed out much earlier in the thread. It takes a very long time for a team to develop the culture required to win consistently against high quality opposition. It won't happen overnight.
I've yet to see a very compelling argument for forcing Australia to cut off one of it's limbs.
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@Snowy this also brings me back to another point. Why does Australia have to have 5 competitive teams at any one point? NZ have very rarely put forward 5 teams that are all competitive at the same time.
Very few competitions ever have an even spread.
I can see the concern if one team consistently under performs, but as someone else pointed out much earlier in the thread. It takes a very long time for a team to develop the culture required to win consistently against high quality opposition. It won't happen overnight.
I've yet to see a very compelling argument for forcing Australia to cut off one of it's limbs.
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I seriously am not interested in watching a Rebels v Force match. It ain't "super". Do you see what I am getting at?
@Snowy yeah - but the same could be said of the two weakest NZ teams at any given time. Or the Saffa teams for that matter.
You demand something you don't even provide yourself. It's a nonsense. Which makes the desire for a Pasifika team all the more perplexing. You demand greater competition but you want to add a team with next to no chance of being competitive. Righto.
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@Snowy yeah - but the same could be said of the two weakest NZ teams at any given time. Or the Saffa teams for that matter.
You demand something you don't even provide yourself. It's a nonsense. Which makes the desire for a Pasifika team all the more perplexing. You demand greater competition but you want to add a team with next to no chance of being competitive. Righto.
