Worst All Black RWC exits
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@African-Monkey 2007 was less of a choke than 2019/2003/1999 because the All Blacks dominated the French. They had an overwhelming 73 per cent territorial advantage, winning 166 rucks to France's 42 and making only 73 tackles compared with France's 331. We dominated the contest yet we were not awarded a single penalty in the last 70 minutes of the game.
2019 we lost solely because of own our fault - no external factors involved.
As for 2007, there is no doubt the referee had a huge impact on that game. Let's be honest, if it was refereed fairly then we would have won (the statistics suggest comfortably). I don't believe that is biased or conjecture but rather the facts of the situation.
It was extraordinary (and unprecedented) that a team who spent three quarters of the last 50 minutes of a match defending, much of it within their own 22, could do so without being penalised even once. Not even a free kick or an advantage call. Ted's suggestion that Wayne Barnes was too inexperienced to be refereeing a match of that magnitude, and that he essentially folded under pressure, was also correct. It was clear and obvious to anyone watching the game that he was refereeing only one side, and completely ignoring material offences by the French that were occurring right in front of him.
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@African-Monkey 2007 was less of a choke than 2019/2003/1999 because the All Blacks dominated the French. They had an overwhelming 73 per cent territorial advantage, winning 166 rucks to France's 42 and making only 73 tackles compared with France's 331. We dominated the contest yet we were not awarded a single penalty in the last 70 minutes of the game.
2019 we lost solely because of own our fault - no external factors involved.
As for 2007, there is no doubt the referee had a huge impact on that game. Let's be honest, if it was refereed fairly then we would have won (the statistics suggest comfortably). I don't believe that is biased or conjecture but rather the facts of the situation.
It was extraordinary (and unprecedented) that a team who spent three quarters of the last 50 minutes of a match defending, much of it within their own 22, could do so without being penalised even once. Not even a free kick or an advantage call. Ted's suggestion that Wayne Barnes was too inexperienced to be refereeing a match of that magnitude, and that he essentially folded under pressure, was also correct. It was clear and obvious to anyone watching the game that he was refereeing only one side, and completely ignoring material offences by the French that were occurring right in front of him.
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@African-Monkey 2007 was less of a choke than 2019/2003/1999 because the All Blacks dominated the French. They had an overwhelming 73 per cent territorial advantage, winning 166 rucks to France's 42 and making only 73 tackles compared with France's 331. We dominated the contest yet we were not awarded a single penalty in the last 70 minutes of the game.
2019 we lost solely because of own our fault - no external factors involved.
As for 2007, there is no doubt the referee had a huge impact on that game. Let's be honest, if it was refereed fairly then we would have won (the statistics suggest comfortably). I don't believe that is biased or conjecture but rather the facts of the situation.
It was extraordinary (and unprecedented) that a team who spent three quarters of the last 50 minutes of a match defending, much of it within their own 22, could do so without being penalised even once. Not even a free kick or an advantage call. Ted's suggestion that Wayne Barnes was too inexperienced to be refereeing a match of that magnitude, and that he essentially folded under pressure, was also correct. It was clear and obvious to anyone watching the game that he was refereeing only one side, and completely ignoring material offences by the French that were occurring right in front of him.
@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.
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@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.
@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.
Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges
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@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.
Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.
Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges
Yes he was. Which adds to my conspiracy theory that they wanted the hosts to move through. Worst officiating that I have ever witnessed.
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@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.
Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges
Yes he was. Which adds to my conspiracy theory that they wanted the hosts to move through. Worst officiating that I have ever witnessed.
@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.
Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges
Yes he was. Which adds to my conspiracy theory that they wanted the hosts to move through. Worst officiating that I have ever witnessed.
as a group, they were appalling. And a couple of the penalties that should have been blown were right in front of the touchie as well.
We still should have found a way to win though, given the ball and territory, and forward dominance. There was a collective failing of on-field leadership, not helped by losing both our 10s. A perfect storm of absolute shit.
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@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.
Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges
Yes he was. Which adds to my conspiracy theory that they wanted the hosts to move through. Worst officiating that I have ever witnessed.
as a group, they were appalling. And a couple of the penalties that should have been blown were right in front of the touchie as well.
We still should have found a way to win though, given the ball and territory, and forward dominance. There was a collective failing of on-field leadership, not helped by losing both our 10s. A perfect storm of absolute shit.
@mariner4life @Snowy arguably that set up the next decade of dominance. It took until McCaw retired to really process the need to actually win the game - not just be better than the opposition.
Still one of the great chokes, one of the greatest underdog victories, and one of the most incompetent refereeing displays ever
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@mariner4life @Snowy arguably that set up the next decade of dominance. It took until McCaw retired to really process the need to actually win the game - not just be better than the opposition.
Still one of the great chokes, one of the greatest underdog victories, and one of the most incompetent refereeing displays ever
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life @Snowy arguably that set up the next decade of dominance. It took until McCaw retired to really process the need to actually win the game - not just be better than the opposition.
Still one of the great chokes, one of the greatest underdog victories, and one of the most incompetent refereeing displays ever
it was definitely all 3 of those things
Barnes grew on me as a ref though, i thought he developed a really good feel for the game. He would always make one big error though (and if we are honest, that's not a bad strike rate)
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@mariner4life @Snowy arguably that set up the next decade of dominance. It took until McCaw retired to really process the need to actually win the game - not just be better than the opposition.
Still one of the great chokes, one of the greatest underdog victories, and one of the most incompetent refereeing displays ever
@nzzp I still don't believe that we were going to be allowed to win that. Some of the decisions were blatant bias or deliberate blindness which would have been very hard to overcome. I don't see it as an underdog victory I see it as corrupt officials influencing the outcome due to home advantage (and yes it was Cardiff, but believe me that was a France home game in that stadium).
Yes Barnes got better, he probably wasn't trying to influence results after that.
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@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.
Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges
Yes he was. Which adds to my conspiracy theory that they wanted the hosts to move through. Worst officiating that I have ever witnessed.
as a group, they were appalling. And a couple of the penalties that should have been blown were right in front of the touchie as well.
We still should have found a way to win though, given the ball and territory, and forward dominance. There was a collective failing of on-field leadership, not helped by losing both our 10s. A perfect storm of absolute shit.
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.
Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges
Yes he was. Which adds to my conspiracy theory that they wanted the hosts to move through. Worst officiating that I have ever witnessed.
as a group, they were appalling. And a couple of the penalties that should have been blown were right in front of the touchie as well.
Kaplan did his best Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles impersonation that day.
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@African-Monkey 2007 was less of a choke than 2019/2003/1999 because the All Blacks dominated the French. They had an overwhelming 73 per cent territorial advantage, winning 166 rucks to France's 42 and making only 73 tackles compared with France's 331. We dominated the contest yet we were not awarded a single penalty in the last 70 minutes of the game.
2019 we lost solely because of own our fault - no external factors involved.
As for 2007, there is no doubt the referee had a huge impact on that game. Let's be honest, if it was refereed fairly then we would have won (the statistics suggest comfortably). I don't believe that is biased or conjecture but rather the facts of the situation.
It was extraordinary (and unprecedented) that a team who spent three quarters of the last 50 minutes of a match defending, much of it within their own 22, could do so without being penalised even once. Not even a free kick or an advantage call. Ted's suggestion that Wayne Barnes was too inexperienced to be refereeing a match of that magnitude, and that he essentially folded under pressure, was also correct. It was clear and obvious to anyone watching the game that he was refereeing only one side, and completely ignoring material offences by the French that were occurring right in front of him.
@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
2019 we lost solely because of own our fault - no external factors involved.
I think England were an external factor, honestly don't think there was much between ABs, Boks and England, on any given day any of the three teams could have won imho. England caught us flat, Boks caught England flat.
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@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
2019 we lost solely because of own our fault - no external factors involved.
I think England were an external factor, honestly don't think there was much between ABs, Boks and England, on any given day any of the three teams could have won imho. England caught us flat, Boks caught England flat.
@DMX said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
2019 we lost solely because of own our fault - no external factors involved.
I think England were an external factor, honestly don't think there was much between ABs, Boks and England, on any given day any of the three teams could have won imho. England caught us flat, Boks caught England flat.
it could have happened in 2015 in the semi as well, if we didn't have a team stacked with some of the greatest players in NZ history all operating at near peak level.
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@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life @Snowy arguably that set up the next decade of dominance. It took until McCaw retired to really process the need to actually win the game - not just be better than the opposition.
Still one of the great chokes, one of the greatest underdog victories, and one of the most incompetent refereeing displays ever
it was definitely all 3 of those things
Barnes grew on me as a ref though, i thought he developed a really good feel for the game. He would always make one big error though (and if we are honest, that's not a bad strike rate)
@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life @Snowy arguably that set up the next decade of dominance. It took until McCaw retired to really process the need to actually win the game - not just be better than the opposition.
Still one of the great chokes, one of the greatest underdog victories, and one of the most incompetent refereeing displays ever
it was definitely all 3 of those things
Nah. 99 was a choke. 07 was players with a wealth of experience knowing that in those situations the penalty always happens. What their experience didn't account for was near criminal incompetence. A referee unwilling to do his job.
Barnes grew on me as a ref though, i thought he developed a really good feel for the game. He would always make one big error though (and if we are honest, that's not a bad strike rate)
Barnes developed into a ref with very good communication with players and became decisive, but never understood the ruck. It appeared to me that he was mentally overwhelmed with what he witnessed and became paralysed.
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@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@mariner4life @Snowy arguably that set up the next decade of dominance. It took until McCaw retired to really process the need to actually win the game - not just be better than the opposition.
Still one of the great chokes, one of the greatest underdog victories, and one of the most incompetent refereeing displays ever
it was definitely all 3 of those things
Nah. 99 was a choke. 07 was players with a wealth of experience knowing that in those situations the penalty always happens. What their experience didn't account for was near criminal incompetence. A referee unwilling to do his job.
Barnes grew on me as a ref though, i thought he developed a really good feel for the game. He would always make one big error though (and if we are honest, that's not a bad strike rate)
Barnes developed into a ref with very good communication with players and became decisive, but never understood the ruck. It appeared to me that he was mentally overwhelmed with what he witnessed and became paralysed.
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Nah. 99 was a choke. 07 was players with a wealth of experience knowing that in those situations the penalty always happens. What their experience didn't account for was near criminal incompetence. A referee unwilling to do his job.
I'll still argue for a choke.
Given the calibre of those players, we should have done more than wait for a penalty. Tries, dropgoals, anything - arguably the choke was relying on the ref. There was no plan to squeeze a DG there, and no training.
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@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
2019 we lost solely because of own our fault - no external factors involved.
I think England were an external factor, honestly don't think there was much between ABs, Boks and England, on any given day any of the three teams could have won imho. England caught us flat, Boks caught England flat.
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@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Nah. 99 was a choke. 07 was players with a wealth of experience knowing that in those situations the penalty always happens. What their experience didn't account for was near criminal incompetence. A referee unwilling to do his job.
I'll still argue for a choke.
Given the calibre of those players, we should have done more than wait for a penalty. Tries, dropgoals, anything - arguably the choke was relying on the ref. There was no plan to squeeze a DG there, and no training.
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Nah. 99 was a choke. 07 was players with a wealth of experience knowing that in those situations the penalty always happens. What their experience didn't account for was near criminal incompetence. A referee unwilling to do his job.
I'll still argue for a choke.
Given the calibre of those players, we should have done more than wait for a penalty. Tries, dropgoals, anything - arguably the choke was relying on the ref. There was no plan to squeeze a DG there, and no training.
I was OK with the no droppie at the time. It's such a low % score (for NZ anyway, especially at that time), and it really felt like the penalty was coming - it had too!!!
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England were not better side than All Blacks.
The difference was purely mental and tactical.
@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
England were not better side than the All Blacks. Not even close.
The difference was mental and tactical.
and we didn't even lose!! We just didn't win!
Prolly even throw 2019 on the Jersey along with 1997, 2011 and 2015, come next world cup.
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@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
England were not better side than the All Blacks. Not even close.
The difference was mental and tactical.
and we didn't even lose!! We just didn't win!
Prolly even throw 2019 on the Jersey along with 1997, 2011 and 2015, come next world cup.
The 2019 result was different to almost every other world cup exit because we weren't even the form team going into the tournament.
It wasn't some big surprise when England bailed us out, we had been on a rapid downward trajectory ever since Wayne Smith left.
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The 2019 result was different to almost every other world cup exit because we weren't even the form team going into the tournament.
It wasn't some big surprise when England bailed us out, we had been on a rapid downward trajectory ever since Wayne Smith left.
@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
The 2019 result was different to almost every other world cup exit because we weren't even the form team going into the tournament.
It wasn't some big surprise when England bailed us out, we had been on a rapid downward trajectory ever since Wayne Smith left.
So England were the better side?
