Flag

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="560279" data-time="1456206135">
<div>
From people who would normally vote left and would consider "tolerance" as one of their apparent core values...
</div>
</blockquote>
 
You're confused what tolerance means for them. It's a one way street where you have to abide by their moral stance which constantly changes according to some fucked up algorithm. Concepts of personal liberty only extend to them. Personal privacy means nothing if there's a suspicion you earn more.
 
Their intellectual compass is astray. Advise a woman what she can wear or do and they'll go apeshit. Be a refugee and sexually assault a woman and we all need to be mindful that you've had a hard time of it coming to terms with a different culture.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="560279" data-time="1456206135">
<div>
From people who would normally vote left and would consider "tolerance" as one of their apparent core values...
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Which is of course bullshit, they are the ones calling for boycotts , forming twitter mobs and at the some time for some bizarre reason thinking they occupy some sort of moral high ground and calling those who disagree with them right wing nutjobs or neolibs/neocons.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="560280" data-time="1456206952">
<div>
You're confused what tolerance means for them. It's a one way street where you have to abide by their moral stance which constantly changes according to some fucked up algorithm. Concepts of personal liberty only extend to them. Personal privacy means nothing if there's a suspicion you earn more.
 
Their intellectual compass is astray. Advise a woman what she can wear or do and they'll go apeshit. Be a refugee and sexually assault a woman and we all need to be mindful that you've had a hard time of it coming to terms with a different culture.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
This.
Totally against the GCSB being able to read your emails, totally cool with buying a book based on someone stolen communications.
John Key is a rich prick trying to sell off the country to big business, you're a german billionaire who made his money stealing shit and you want to fund my party so we can help you avoid being extradited? Sweet.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="560239" data-time="1456197759">
<div>
I think the flag has bought out the worst in the country. I've been ashamed to read some of the things I've read. 
 
Apparently Carter and Richie are just "fukn merceneries" to money from Key and thats why they are saying they are pro change.
 
I get that some people don't like Key, I get that those that don't like Key and want the flag to stay have a double-barrel hatred of the guy. But there seems to be a complete lack of ability to respect other peoples opinions.. 
 
Most of it is very shameful.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Any political thread these days you can garantee one of the 1st 10 comments is that meme with a pic of Key with the words 'change this' and then under the current flag 'not this' or calling him a fukn fluffybunny....it is a disgrace alright.

jegga

<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.georgefm.co.nz/Social-Meanies-Max-Key-reads-out-your-most-ruthless-messages/tabid/93/articleID/233998/Default.aspx'>http://www.georgefm.co.nz/Social-Meanies-Max-Key-reads-out-your-most-ruthless-messages/tabid/93/articleID/233998/Default.aspx</a>

Paekakboyz

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Baron Silas Greenback" data-cid="560278" data-time="1456205988">
<div>
Why do they need a design person? What would a design person know about popularity of a flag.. proof of that.. Red Peak crashing and burning. 
How many flag designers does N Z have? Who would you have suggested?
 
As for poor attendance.. oh well.. that is not the processes fault. What are they supposed to do ... drag people in?
 
So far your criticisms of the 'process' seem rather weak. 
 
This was the panel btw.
 
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/the-panel/'>https://www.govt.nz/browse/engaging-with-government/the-nz-flag-your-chance-to-decide/the-panel/</a>
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Low attendance at the consultation seemed a outcome of people not being overly engaged, at least not enough to head along rather than participate online. Plus you'd be bagged if you didn't have an element of face-to-face.
 
Great questions about someone with a design background being involved. Wonder if that came up when they selected the panel? Given what I've learnt about vexillology its not a big deal that no one with that area of interest wasn't involved - Mulholland might be a sleeper vexillologist though. 
 
Didn't have a problem with the panel aside from wanting 1-2 people involved in graphic/visual design. Would have offered something to the content that was put forward to the public and the overall conversation imo. Sufficient for me to think the 'process' could have been better. Nice trawl with the link btw

taniwharugby

I would never go along to one of those meetings....IMO (and very limited experience) the majority in attendance are usually those opposed, so rarely do those running the meetings get a fair hearing as they get shouted down too often.

No Quarter

My main issue with the Lockwood flag is the design of the Silver Fern. It looks more like a feather, which is a real shame given some of the other Fern designs that look great. 
I prefer it to our current flag though. 
So the question is, vote no in the hope that we will repeat the process in the near future? I guess if it doesn't change then we are unlikely to try again in the short term. However if it does get changed we are unlikely to ever change it again... 
In the end it's just a flag so I'm not overly fussed either way, so will probably vote to change it just to get away from the Union Jack.

Godder

There are fuckwits on all sides of the political spectrum, and when the left eventually returns to power, the right wing loons will be just as nutty, same as they were last time. Despite that, I don't dismiss the general concerns or arguments just because some of the people espousing them are objectionable or clearly deranged. 
It would be pleasant if some of you dogpiling in this thread could do the same.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Godder" data-cid="560330" data-time="1456219627">
<div>
There are fuckwits on all sides of the political spectrum, and when the left eventually returns to power, the right wing loons will be just as nutty, same as they were last time. Despite that, I don't dismiss the general concerns or arguments just because some of the people espousing them are objectionable or clearly deranged. 
It would be pleasant if some of you dogpiling in this thread could do the same.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Thats cool that you can separate the people from their opinions, the John Key is a rich prick people are just as easy for me to dismiss as the weirdos who thought Helen Clark was gay and in a sham marriage .
 
As had been pointed out its the rank hypocrisy of the left preaching peace love and mung beans one minute and then trying to shout down or abuse anyone who disagrees with them thats pretty hard to look past.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="560298" data-time="1456211350">
My main issue with the Lockwood flag is the design of the Silver Fern. It looks more like a feather, which is a real shame given some of the other</blockquote>
 
Bullshit 
Funny looking feathers out you way nq

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Godder" data-cid="560330" data-time="1456219627">
There are fuckwits on all sides of the political spectrum, and when the left eventually returns to power, the right wing loons will be just as nutty, same as they were last time. Despite that, I don't dismiss the general concerns or arguments just because some of the people espousing them are objectionable or clearly deranged. 
It would be pleasant if some of you dogpiling in this thread could do the same.</blockquote>
 
Please explain?

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Godder" data-cid="560330" data-time="1456219627">
<div>
There are fuckwits on all sides of the political spectrum, and when the left eventually returns to power, the right wing loons will be just as nutty, same as they were last time. Despite that, I don't dismiss the general concerns or arguments just because some of the people espousing them are objectionable or clearly deranged. 
It would be pleasant if some of you dogpiling in this thread could do the same.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
Nope. The behaviour and feral acts towards Clark were nowhere near this level,. She was just as deeply disliked even loathed. But the manner that it was manifested has been very different.
 
The far left ferals are truly ugly.

Paekakboyz

Folks were going pretty hard on Helen about her looks, sexuality and liberal destruction of NZ back in the day... Some very grubby and deeply personal stuff.
 
In saying that I only remember 1-2 instances of death threats (didn't one guy actually get caught??) against Helen when you see stuff like that daily on FB against Key. That kind of stuff just isn't cricket. (Who the fuck is the 3rd umpire!! :whistle: )

Baron Silas Greenback

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Paekakboyz" data-cid="560518" data-time="1456280243">
<div>
Folks were going pretty hard on Helen about her looks, sexuality and liberal destruction of NZ back in the day... Some very grubby and deeply personal stuff.
 
In saying that I only remember 1-2 instances of death threats (didn't one guy actually get caught??) against Helen when you see stuff like that daily on FB against Key. That kind of stuff just isn't cricket. (Who the fuck is the 3rd umpire!! :whistle: ) 
</div>
</blockquote>
 
 
Yip, but the severity and scale is much more massive with a right wing govt.

NTA

Factor in the severity and scale of a much more active social media + Web 2.0 scenario.

jegga

The home of the leftard in NZ is the standard, they have decided that the facebook accounts were faked based on a blog post from another leftard who has since decided that they are real and if you read the comments they seem to think because the govt has caused poverty in NZ "the ruling class" can expect more of this.
<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://thestandard.org.nz/going-too-far/'>http://thestandard.org.nz/going-too-far/</a>
If you ever wondered why I call them leftards the stupidity of believing you can elect a government that can eliminate poverty is a big part of the reason why . These people are fools, they seem to have taken over labour too. 
Anyway heres what they think of the flag, Richie "McKey" is the focus of a fair amount of their bile now.<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://thestandard.org.nz/the-flag-change-campaigns-last-throw-of-the-dice/'>http://thestandard.org.nz/the-flag-change-campaigns-last-throw-of-the-dice/</a>

jegga

<div style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;color:rgb(69,69,69);background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://tewharewhero.blogspot.co.nz/2016/02/an-open-letter-to-richie-mccaw.html'>http://tewharewhero.blogspot.co.nz/2016/02/an-open-letter-to-richie-mccaw.html</a></div>
<div style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;color:rgb(69,69,69);background-color:rgb(243,243,243);">Dear Richie,</div>
<div style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;color:rgb(69,69,69);background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);">You're a great rugby player and I understand the reasons why so many honours have been heaped on your shoulders but I don't accept that they're deserved. I know that those who the conservative world honours almost always share its core values and it was no surprise when an over-excited John Key opened his 2014 election campaign by holding up his mobile phone and crowing - 'Richie says, yes you can.' </div>
<div style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;color:rgb(69,69,69);background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> (We have to assume there was an actual text from you and that it was not unsolicited.) 
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);">Iâ€ve no doubt that at times you've found the PM's fawning fanboy attentions a bit embarrassing and tiresome - although not half as embarrassing and tiresome as many in the wider populace have found them - and that, like many of your fellow citizens, you wish he'd grow some gravitas. At times I did wonder if your tacit and overt support of Key was the result of political naivety but any doubts I had on that score were dispelled by your recent decision to use your considerable influence to sway public opinion towards John Key's flag. </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);">And let's not be disingenuous and try to pretend it's anything other than John Key's flag. He wanted a fern; he wanted the flag to be black or at least to have some black on it; he expressed his preference for the black, blue and white Lockwood design; he has been pictured wearing it as a lapel pin whilst on official duties, and he set up the costly two stage referendum to maximise his spin doctors' chances of swaying public opinion - which, let's not forget - initially was overwhelmingly against flag change.</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);">He wants the change and he wants the flag to be remembered as his flag. And indeed it will. It is already a symbol of an increasingly divided country so, if adopted, it will be an apt legacy indeed. The irony in this is that a lot of those people who are calling for flag change so that we have a flag which distinguishes us from Australia - are the very people who would have screamed foul if a left wing government had staged such an obvious piece of political manipulation.</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> Can you imagine the outrage from the political right and its media mouthpieces if a left wing government, whilst preaching the need for austerity amongst the affluent, had decided to spend $26 million on a two-stage referendum intended to ensure a particular outcome - i.e. to ask people to choose a design by ranking their preferences from a skewed shortlist of designs - most of which featured the PM's preferred symbol - and then used highly influential people to manipulate public opinion into voting for the 'winning' design?</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);">The spin doctors knew that a straight vote for flag change - especially in advance of any constitutional changes - would result in a resounding NO. So they set up a process in a which a minority of the electorate would pick one of the fern based designs after which they would put the political machine on maximum spin cycle to try to ensure that design would win over the current flag. </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);">They knew there'd be a core of people who would follow the PM's lead. They also knew some people who were previously opposed to flag change would start to waver if a lot of celebrities and sports stars like yourself supported the challenger - especially as the Olympics are later this year and perish the thought that someone might mistake a Kiwi medal winner for an Australian. And they banked on the fact that a lot of people would be disgusted by the whole process or care little either way and they'd not vote at all. If their calculations prove to be correct, the outcome will be that a small minority of the population will once again have imposed its narrow self interest on the rest of the country. If this flag change had been part of an overall review of NZ's constitution and a move towards a republic I could see the logic of it. If John Key didn't fall over himself to tug his forelock to the Queen and welcome British royal visitors to NZ, and if his government had not reintroduced a British style titular honours system, I might be less inclined to see it as a cynical rebranding exercise and a distraction and diversion from more important issues. Like it or not, New Zealand history is inextricably tied up with British history. Our legal and our political system are all derived from the British system. On your passport, it is the British Monarch, not the Prime Minster, who asks foreign governments to grant you entry and protection. The relationship between tangata whenua and the British Crown is a defining element of our history, culture and constitutional arrangements. The coat of arms symbolises that relationship, as does the old flag. The black and blue Lockwood design makes no reference to it.The black is a nod to the All Black brand which has spread its tentacles into all other NZ sports brands and which originally had no symbolic national significance; the giant stylised fern frond is also a nod to sporting as well as other commercial brands; the blue (usefully much closer to the National Party blue than the navy blue of the old flag) is supposed to represent the Pacific Ocean, and only the red stars of the Southern Cross remain unchanged. Perhaps if this clunky design does win, when the government then embarks on the next costly exercise - that of changing all the official uses of the current flag (eg. all the insignia which feature the coat of arms) - it could make partial amends by changing the spear in the hands of the Maori warrior to the Tino Rangitiratanga flag. I won't be holding my breath. 
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);">In the context of the secret negotiations around the TPP - the signing of which arguably involves the greatest ceding of political and economic sovereignty that independent New Zealand has ever seen - the spiel about the importance of having flag change becomes even more obvious as a piece of political theatre designed to distract and divert people away from way more important issues. We get to vote on the design of a bit of cloth that is run up a flag pole and which athletes drape themselves in but we don't get to decide on joining the TPP which, if ratified, means our sovereignty has been profoundly compromised. You're a sportsman and a team captain; you know what it takes to get a group of individual players to work as a team. You should also know what gets in the way of that happening. IF it is adopted, the blue and black flag will always be disliked by a great many people in a way and to a degree that the old flag - for all its problematic history and reminders of a colonial past - never was. 
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><img src="http://www.h2g2.com/h2g2/skins/Alabaster/images/Smilies/f_facepalm.gif" alt="f_facepalm.gif"></div>

antipodean

It takes a remarkable amount of hate to get the socialists to defend colonial symbolism. Hypocrites.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="560562" data-time="1456293155">
<div>
It takes a remarkable amount of hate to get the socialists to defend colonial symbolism. Hypocrites.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
This is the part I find fascinating, if this was a Labour government initiative theres no way in hell these people would be trying this line of reasoning in fact they'd be saying the exact opposite . Here's another one using it <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://publicaddress.net/onpoint/yeah-nah-but-what-do-we-stand-for/'>http://publicaddress.net/onpoint/yeah-nah-but-what-do-we-stand-for/</a>

The Silver Fern

Flag