Flag
-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="No Quarter" data-cid="560298" data-time="1456211350"><p>
My main issue with the Lockwood flag is the design of the Silver Fern. It looks more like a feather, which is a real shame given some of the other</p></blockquote>
<br>
Bullshit<br>
Funny looking feathers out you way nq -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Godder" data-cid="560330" data-time="1456219627"><p>
There are fuckwits on all sides of the political spectrum, and when the left eventually returns to power, the right wing loons will be just as nutty, same as they were last time. Despite that, I don't dismiss the general concerns or arguments just because some of the people espousing them are objectionable or clearly deranged.<br><br>
It would be pleasant if some of you dogpiling in this thread could do the same.</p></blockquote>
<br>
Please explain? -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Godder" data-cid="560330" data-time="1456219627">
<div>
<p>There are fuckwits on all sides of the political spectrum, and when the left eventually returns to power, the right wing loons will be just as nutty, same as they were last time. Despite that, I don't dismiss the general concerns or arguments just because some of the people espousing them are objectionable or clearly deranged.<br><br>
It would be pleasant if some of you dogpiling in this thread could do the same.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Nope. The behaviour and feral acts towards Clark were nowhere near this level,. She was just as deeply disliked even loathed. But the manner that it was manifested has been very different.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The far left ferals are truly ugly.</p> -
<p>Folks were going pretty hard on Helen about her looks, sexuality and liberal destruction of NZ back in the day... Some very grubby and deeply personal stuff.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In saying that I only remember 1-2 instances of death threats (didn't one guy actually get caught??) against Helen when you see stuff like that daily on FB against Key. That kind of stuff just isn't cricket. (Who the fuck is the 3rd umpire!! :whistle: ) </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Paekakboyz" data-cid="560518" data-time="1456280243">
<div>
<p>Folks were going pretty hard on Helen about her looks, sexuality and liberal destruction of NZ back in the day... Some very grubby and deeply personal stuff.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In saying that I only remember 1-2 instances of death threats (didn't one guy actually get caught??) against Helen when you see stuff like that daily on FB against Key. That kind of stuff just isn't cricket. (Who the fuck is the 3rd umpire!! :whistle: ) </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Yip, but the severity and scale is much more massive with a right wing govt.</p> -
<p>The home of the leftard in NZ is the standard, they have decided that the facebook accounts were faked based on a blog post from another leftard who has since decided that they are real and if you read the comments they seem to think because the govt has caused poverty in NZ "the ruling class" can expect more of this.</p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://thestandard.org.nz/going-too-far/'>http://thestandard.org.nz/going-too-far/</a></p>
<p>If you ever wondered why I call them leftards the stupidity of believing you can elect a government that can eliminate poverty is a big part of the reason why . These people are fools, they seem to have taken over labour too. </p>
<p>Anyway heres what they think of the flag, Richie "McKey" is the focus of a fair amount of their bile now.<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://thestandard.org.nz/the-flag-change-campaigns-last-throw-of-the-dice/'>http://thestandard.org.nz/the-flag-change-campaigns-last-throw-of-the-dice/</a></p> -
<div style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;color:rgb(69,69,69);background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://tewharewhero.blogspot.co.nz/2016/02/an-open-letter-to-richie-mccaw.html'>http://tewharewhero.blogspot.co.nz/2016/02/an-open-letter-to-richie-mccaw.html</a></div>
<div style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;color:rgb(69,69,69);background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">Dear Richie,</span></div>
<div style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;color:rgb(69,69,69);background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;"><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);">You're a great rugby player and </span></span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">I understand the reasons why so many honours have been heaped on your shoulders but I don't accept that they're deserved. </span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">I know that those who the conservative world honours almost always share its core values and it was no surprise when an</span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;"> over-excited John Key opened his 2014 election campaign by holding up his mobile phone and crowing - </span><i>'Richie says, yes you can.'</i><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;"> </span></div>
<div style="font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;color:rgb(69,69,69);background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><br><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">(We have to assume there was an actual text from you and that it was not unsolicited.)</span><br>
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:sans-serif;">Iâ€
ve no doubt that at times you've found the PM's fawning fanboy attentions a bit embarrassing and tiresome - although not half as embarrassing and tiresome as many in the wider populace have found them - and that, like many of your fellow citizens, you wish he'd grow some gravitas. </span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:sans-serif;">At times I did wonder if your tacit and overt </span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">support of Key was the result of political naivety but any doubts I had on that score were dispelled </span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">by your recent decision</span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;"> to use your considerable influence to sway public opinion towards John Key's flag. </span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;"><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);">And let's not be disingenuous and try to pretend it's anything <i>other </i>than John Key's flag. </span></span><br><br><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;"><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);">He wanted a fern; he wanted the flag to be black or at least to have some black on it; he expressed his preference for the black, blue and white Lockwood design; he has been pictured wearing it as a lapel pin </span></span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:sans-serif;">whilst on official duties, and </span><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;"><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);">he set up the costly two stage referendum to </span></span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">maximise his spin doctors' chances of swaying public opinion - which, let's not forget - initially was <b>overwhelmingly against flag change.</b></span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">He wants the change and he wants the flag to be remembered as<i> his </i>flag. And indeed it will. It is already a symbol of an increasingly divided country so, if adopted, it will be an apt legacy indeed. </span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">The irony in this is that a lot of those people who are calling for flag change so that we have a flag which distinguishes us from Australia - are the very people who would have screamed foul if a left wing government had staged such an obvious piece of political manipulation.</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><br><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;"><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);">Can you imagine the outrage from the political right and its media mouthpieces if a left wing government, whilst preaching the need for austerity amongst the affluent, had decided to spend $26 million on a two-stage referendum intended to ensure a particular outcome - i.e. to </span></span><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;"><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);">ask people to choose a design by ranking their preferences from a skewed shortlist of designs - most of which featured the PM's preferred symbol - and then used highly influential people to </span></span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">manipulate public opinion into voting for the 'winning' design?</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">The spin doctors knew that a straight vote for flag change - especially in advance of any constitutional changes - would result in a resounding NO. So they set up a process in a which a minority of the electorate would pick one of the fern based designs after which they would put the political machine on maximum spin cycle to try to ensure that design would win over the current flag. </span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">They knew there'd be a core of people who would follow the PM's lead. They also knew some people who were previously opposed to flag change would start to waver if a lot of celebrities and sports stars like yourself supported the challenger - especially as the Olympics are later this year and perish the thought that someone might mistake a Kiwi medal winner for an Australian. And they banked on the fact that a lot of people would be disgusted by the whole process or care little either way and they'd not vote at all.</span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">If their calculations prove to be correct, the outcome will be that a small minority of the population will once again have imposed its narrow self interest on the rest of the country.</span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">If this flag change had been part of an overall review of NZ's constitution and a move towards a republic I could see the logic of it. If John Key didn't fall over himself to tug his forelock to the Queen and welcome British royal visitors to NZ, and if his government had not reintroduced a British style titular honours system, I might be less inclined to see it as a cynical rebranding exercise and a distraction and diversion from more important issues.</span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);"><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">Like it or not, New Zealand history is inextricably tied up with British history. Ou</span></span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">r legal and our political system are all derived from the British system. </span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;"> </span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">On your passport, it is the British Monarch, not the Prime Minster, who asks foreign governments to grant you entry and protection. </span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">Th</span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);"><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">e relationship between tangata whenua and the British Crown is a defining element of our history, culture and constitutional arrangements. The coat of arms symbolises that relationship, as does the old flag.</span></span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);"><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">The black and blue Lockwood design makes no reference to it.</span></span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);"><span style="font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">The black is a nod to the All Black brand which has spread its tentacles into all other NZ sports brands and which originally had no symbolic national significance; the giant stylised fern frond is also a nod to sporting as well as other commercial brands; the </span></span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">blue (usefully much closer to the National Party blue than the navy blue of the old flag) is supposed to represent the Pacific Ocean, and only the red stars of the Southern Cross remain unchanged. </span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">Perhaps if this clunky design does win, when the government then embarks on the next costly exercise - that of changing all the official uses of the current flag (eg. all the insignia which feature the coat of arms) - it could make partial amends by changing the spear in the hands of the Maori warrior to the Tino Rangitiratanga flag. I won't be holding my breath.</span><br>
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">In the context of the secret negotiations around the TPP - the signing of which arguably involves the greatest ceding of political and economic sovereignty that independent New Zealand has ever seen - the spiel about the importance of having flag change becomes even more obvious as a piece of political theatre designed to distract and divert people away from way more important issues. </span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">We get to vote on the design of a bit of cloth that is run up a flag pole and which athletes drape themselves in but we don't get to decide on joining the TPP which, if ratified, means our sovereignty has been profoundly compromised.</span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">You're</span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;"> a sportsman and a team captain; you know what it takes to get a group of individual players to work as a team. You should also know what gets in the way of that happening. </span><br><br><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:'trebuchet ms', sans-serif;">IF it is adopted, the blue and black flag will always be disliked by a great many people in a way and to a degree that the old flag - for all its problematic history and reminders of a colonial past - </span><span style="color:rgb(69,69,69);font-family:sans-serif;">never was. </span><br>
</div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"> </div>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Trebuchet MS', Trebuchet, sans-serif;font-size:13.2px;background-color:rgb(243,243,243);"><img src="http://www.h2g2.com/h2g2/skins/Alabaster/images/Smilies/f_facepalm.gif" alt="f_facepalm.gif"></div> -
<p>It takes a remarkable amount of hate to get the socialists to defend colonial symbolism. Hypocrites.</p>
-
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="560562" data-time="1456293155">
<div>
<p>It takes a remarkable amount of hate to get the socialists to defend colonial symbolism. Hypocrites.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>This is the part I find fascinating, if this was a Labour government initiative theres no way in hell these people would be trying this line of reasoning in fact they'd be saying the exact opposite . Here's another one using it <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://publicaddress.net/onpoint/yeah-nah-but-what-do-we-stand-for/'>http://publicaddress.net/onpoint/yeah-nah-but-what-do-we-stand-for/</a></p> -
<p>First Stuff comment I have ever found that is interesting and thought-provoking:</p>
<p>
</p>
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote">
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<div> </div>
<div><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:0px;">I'm a European living here for 10 years, now a proud NZ citizen. I think at it's core, a change of flag will be rejected because this country is essentially a teenager - looks, walks and talks like an adult so it thinks it is one, but it isn't. Kiwi's so often tell me they are Dutch or Scottish or Brazilian or whatever place their grandparents came from, and people whose families have been here for generations so willingly accept the moniker of "pakeha". The Anzac conflict marking our "emergence as a nation" says it all - we engaged in an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to please mother England, alongside our Aussie neighbours (with their "very different flag" cough). We just don't have a true sense of self-identity yet, which I expect people who grew up here will not like hearing but it is the truth. That's not such a bad thing - we will change the flag someday, but the country isn't ready yet to cut the strings to our colonial past. Nothing wrong with not being ready! Maybe in 50 years things will have changed. For me though, I'd love to say goodbye to the Union Jack and see a national flag I can be proud of.</span>I'm a European living here for 10 years, now a proud NZ citizen. I think at it's core, a change of flag will be rejected because this country is essentially a teenager - looks, walks and talks like an adult so it thinks it is one, but it isn't. Kiwi's so often tell me they are Dutch or Scottish or Brazilian or whatever place their grandparents came from, and people whose families have been here for generations so willingly accept the moniker of "pakeha". The Anzac conflict marking our "emergence as a nation" says it all - we engaged in an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to please mother England, alongside our Aussie neighbours (with their "very different flag" cough). We just don't have a true sense of self-identity yet, which I expect people who grew up here will not like hearing but it is the truth. That's not such a bad thing - we will change the flag someday, but the country isn't ready yet to cut the strings to our colonial past. Nothing wrong with not being ready! Maybe in 50 years things will have changed. For me though, I'd love to say goodbye to the Union Jack and see a national flag I can be proud of.</div>
</blockquote>
<p><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:0px;">I'm a European living here for 10 years, now a proud NZ citizen. I think at it's core, a change of flag will be rejected because this country is essentially a teenager - looks, walks and talks like an adult so it thinks it is one, but it isn't. Kiwi's so often tell me they are Dutch or Scottish or Brazilian or whatever place their grandparents came from, and people whose families have been here for generations so willingly accept the moniker of "pakeha". The Anzac conflict marking our "emergence as a nation" says it all - we engaged in an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to please mother England, alongside our Aussie neighbours (with their "very different flag" cough). We just don't have a true sense of self-identity yet, which I expect people who grew up here will not like hearing but it is the truth. That's not such a bad thing - we will change the flag someday, but the country isn't ready yet to cut the strings to our colonial past. Nothing wrong with not being ready! Maybe in 50 years things will have changed. For me though, I'd love to say goodbye to the Union Jack and see a national flag I can be proud of.</span><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:0px;">I'm a European living here for 10 years, now a proud NZ citizen. I think at it's core, a change of flag will be rejected because this country is essentially a teenager - looks, walks and talks like an adult so it thinks it is one, but it isn't. Kiwi's so often tell me they are Dutch or Scottish or Brazilian or whatever place their grandparents came from, and people whose families have been here for generations so willingly accept the moniker of "pakeha". The Anzac conflict marking our "emergence as a nation" says it all - we engaged in an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to please mother England, alongside our Aussie neighbours (with their "very different flag" cough). We just don't have a true sense of self-identity yet, which I expect people who grew up here will not like hearing but it is the truth. That's not such a bad thing - we will change the flag someday, but the country isn't ready yet to cut the strings to our colonial past. Nothing wrong with not being ready! Maybe in 50 years things will have changed. For me though, I'd love to say goodbye to the Union Jack and see a national flag I can be proud of.</span></p> -
<p>I've just now realised something. I now actively dislike the current flag. Prior to this whole referendum I would have at worst said I had no feelings either way though more than likely liked the flag but was open to ideas for change. I mean look at it, we've got the british flag on our flag and they've been for years trying to separate from us in favour of their euro buddies. It just looks dated and un-kiwi to me now. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Damn it because it's not going to change so I gotta live with a crap flag now..</p>
<p>ffs John Key!</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TeWaio" data-cid="560593" data-time="1456308914">
<div>
<p>First Stuff comment I have ever found that is interesting and thought-provoking:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:0px;">I'm a European living here for 10 years, now a proud NZ citizen. I think at it's core, a change of flag will be rejected because this country is essentially a teenager - looks, walks and talks like an adult so it thinks it is one, but it isn't. Kiwi's so often tell me they are Dutch or Scottish or Brazilian or whatever place their grandparents came from, and people whose families have been here for generations so willingly accept the moniker of "pakeha". The Anzac conflict marking our "emergence as a nation" says it all - we engaged in an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to please mother England, alongside our Aussie neighbours (with their "very different flag" cough). We just don't have a true sense of self-identity yet, which I expect people who grew up here will not like hearing but it is the truth. That's not such a bad thing - we will change the flag someday, but the country isn't ready yet to cut the strings to our colonial past. Nothing wrong with not being ready! Maybe in 50 years things will have changed. For me though, I'd love to say goodbye to the Union Jack and see a national flag I can be proud of.</span><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:0px;">I'm a European living here for 10 years, now a proud NZ citizen. I think at it's core, a change of flag will be rejected because this country is essentially a teenager - looks, walks and talks like an adult so it thinks it is one, but it isn't. Kiwi's so often tell me they are Dutch or Scottish or Brazilian or whatever place their grandparents came from, and people whose families have been here for generations so willingly accept the moniker of "pakeha". The Anzac conflict marking our "emergence as a nation" says it all - we engaged in an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to please mother England, alongside our Aussie neighbours (with their "very different flag" cough). We just don't have a true sense of self-identity yet, which I expect people who grew up here will not like hearing but it is the truth. That's not such a bad thing - we will change the flag someday, but the country isn't ready yet to cut the strings to our colonial past. Nothing wrong with not being ready! Maybe in 50 years things will have changed. For me though, I'd love to say goodbye to the Union Jack and see a national flag I can be proud of.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Have you got a link...?</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="560605" data-time="1456335219">
<div>
<p>Have you got a link...?</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>Stuff moderators would have deleted that post by now - far too coherent and not enough ignorance and bile!!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>They've got a reputation to uphold in Stuff comments!! :whistle:</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Paekakboyz" data-cid="560613" data-time="1456343683">
<div>
<p>Stuff moderators would have deleted that post by now - far too coherent and not enough ignorance and bile!!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>They've got a reputation to uphold in Stuff comments!! :whistle:</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>He he.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Here's another desperate article in favour of the current flag</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11595044'>http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11595044</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p><em>The current flag is one of the most culturally and historically meaningful flags in the world.</em></p>
<p> </p>
<p>Needs one of those Tui "Yeah, right" replies. The whole article comes across as one of those pseudo-intellectual jobs.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="TeWaio" data-cid="560593" data-time="1456308914">
<div>
<p>First Stuff comment I have ever found that is interesting and thought-provoking:</p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:0px;">I'm a European living here for 10 years, now a proud NZ citizen. I think at it's core, a change of flag will be rejected because this country is essentially a teenager - looks, walks and talks like an adult so it thinks it is one, but it isn't. Kiwi's so often tell me they are Dutch or Scottish or Brazilian or whatever place their grandparents came from, and people whose families have been here for generations so willingly accept the moniker of "pakeha". The Anzac conflict marking our "emergence as a nation" says it all - we engaged in an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to please mother England, alongside our Aussie neighbours (with their "very different flag" cough). We just don't have a true sense of self-identity yet, which I expect people who grew up here will not like hearing but it is the truth. That's not such a bad thing - we will change the flag someday, but the country isn't ready yet to cut the strings to our colonial past. Nothing wrong with not being ready! Maybe in 50 years things will have changed. For me though, I'd love to say goodbye to the Union Jack and see a national flag I can be proud of.</span><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:0px;">I'm a European living here for 10 years, now a proud NZ citizen. I think at it's core, a change of flag will be rejected because this country is essentially a teenager - looks, walks and talks like an adult so it thinks it is one, but it isn't. Kiwi's so often tell me they are Dutch or Scottish or Brazilian or whatever place their grandparents came from, and people whose families have been here for generations so willingly accept the moniker of "pakeha". The Anzac conflict marking our "emergence as a nation" says it all - we engaged in an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation to please mother England, alongside our Aussie neighbours (with their "very different flag" cough). We just don't have a true sense of self-identity yet, which I expect people who grew up here will not like hearing but it is the truth. That's not such a bad thing - we will change the flag someday, but the country isn't ready yet to cut the strings to our colonial past. Nothing wrong with not being ready! Maybe in 50 years things will have changed. For me though, I'd love to say goodbye to the Union Jack and see a national flag I can be proud of.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>that is a great comment. The only thing I'd disagree with though is the teenage. Looking at the comments and general behavior of many of the population around this issue suggests we aren't even into pre-school yet.</p> -
<p>I'm quite frankly disgusted at the direction the flag debate is going, and the acid being directed at John Key (the whole Key's flag bullshit).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>By all means say, I just prefer current flag. Say our soldiers died for that flag. But that post link above saying it is one of the most culturally and historically meaningful flags in the world? Oh fuck off. We're in the southern hemisphere and were once a dominion does not make us special or unique in any way.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I was always ok with a flag change, but now I really, really hope it happens, as I'm completely comfortable with the blue (closer to National party blue, oh dear god that person needs a fucking uppercut) black, silver fern and southern cross which I think says infinitely more about who we are now as a nation than the union jack.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And to those snarling at pro-change high profile kiwis, grow the fuck up. Your bile and attacks and foot stomping are thoroughly embarrassing and make me rather ashamed we share a nationality. But if Canada can weather the storm of bye bye colonial representation, hello symbol that is IMMEDIATELY recognisable as us...so can we.</p> -
<p>yea, what Porny McWritesalot said!</p>
<p> </p>
<p><img src="http://reactiongif.org/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/GIF-Fabulous-proud-snap-GIF.gif" alt="GIF-Fabulous-proud-snap-GIF.gif"></p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="560665" data-time="1456358522">
<div>
<p>that is a great comment. The only thing I'd disagree with though is the teenage. Looking at the comments and general behavior of many of the population around this issue suggests we aren't even into pre-school yet.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p>I'd actually disagree with the landings in the Dardanelles being an "unprovoked attack" - legitimate target, being Allies of Germany, no?</p> -
<p>there were comments I heard this morning that the black on the proposed flag made it 'depressing'</p>
