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MajorRage

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Billy Tell" data-cid="560750" data-time="1456380284">
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I think it would require an FBI investigation. We have been told no-one wanted this referendum & no-one wants the news flag, so there would have to be paranormal phenomena to explain it I reckon.
 
(I'm still expecting the old flag to win by about 55% to 45%).
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funny - I wrote on a FB post on pro-keep the flag that it looked it was going to stay due to polls suggesting 60% in their favour, and I was attacked by left, right and sundry for hugely over-estimating the support, told I was likely on the Key payroll etc. One guy said he would bet his life it's more like 25% and that shows how full of shit I was.
 
It's equal parts ridiculous and equal parts embarrassing.

Paekakboyz

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="560771" data-time="1456384129">
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The timing I guess, there's been no real push for change and the two previous attempts failed to get traction. If someone had said " hang on is this the time to be doing this, we still have a generation that has a very real attachment to this flag and we should respect that" I could understand that. I'd still want change though.
The reasons offered have been largely centred around a rabid dislike for Key and national , how weak to let feelings like that decide our flag.
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That's the bit that makes the anti-Key etc etc opposition a pain. If you don't rate how it's gone down you tend to get aligned with the fringe... which in this case is super vocal and feral. I'm pro-change but dislike the options and like a lot of ferners think the conversation has sunk pretty fucking low at times. Agree that the status quo is the most likely outcome. Maybe next time aye, then laser kiwi will get a fair crack.

TeWaio

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="mariner4life" data-cid="560700" data-time="1456365567">
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damn straight. It was a good plan too, just completely fucked up on the ground on the first day. 
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A bit like our recent test series vs Australia

MajorRage

I can't help myself.. get a load of these fine examples.
 
How the hell did you upload a picture? Didn't bloody work ...

Bones

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="560791" data-time="1456393345">I can't help myself.. get a load of these fine examples.</blockquote>
Wow.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="560791" data-time="1456393345">
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 I can't help myself.. get a load of these fine examples.
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What am I missing here?

Crucial

I'm really tied on this one.
 
I am of the school that wants change from our current flag but thinks we could have had a better option.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="560835" data-time="1456430634">
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I'm really tied on this one.
 
I am of the school that wants change from our current flag but thinks we could have had a better option.
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I'm the same, although I would likely vote for the new one, but when I tried to register I couldn't because I don't have a photo attached to my RealMe account although I managed to get a passport using my RealMe.

Crucial

I heard the guy from the RSA on the radio yesterday and he was asked to give the one good reason why the flag shouldn't change.
 
His answer was that people shouldn't vote for change because of the process that was run.
 
Pretty weak if you ask me. The process was muddled and flawed but the upshot is that however we got here we now have a decision on whether to stay or change.
 
If he had a good argument for keeping the current flag then he would have been more credible. 
 
I'm still perplexed why the RSA sees itself as the keepers of the flag anyway.

jegga

I'm not buying into the "process was flawed" line to be honest , they had a committee with a decent cross section of nz , opened it to public submissions and had a roadshow around the country , narrowed it down to forty and we got to vote on the final four. The process was fucked up mostly by activists who came up with bullshit reasons to keep it and invented concerns like having no vexilogists on the committee add the red peak twitter campaign which resulted in the govt allowing it into the options I fail to see what more they could have done to make the process better in the face of such unrelenting fuckwittery. 
I put flawed process down with we need to keep the Union Jack as a reminder of our past . Basically just bullshit to try and pick holes in it . 
As for the rsa , my father served two years overseas with the army. Like most people he said the occasional dopey thing but he never said anything about fighting for our flag, only a moron dies for a bit if cloth from what he told me it was all about mate ship and not letting each other doen when it counted. His headstone , service medals and all of his badges have ferns on them , not even a southern cross.

NTA

I've seen the "no graphic designers or vexiwhatsits involved!" argument flying around. Most of the time it is preceded by "That bastard John Key made sure" :think: 
It really comes down to opinion. It's art - you like it, you may not. Either way, no Mac-using hipster with a degree in drawing pretty lines is likely to change that. 
If the process was broken, then what was the answer? Keep adding flags to the voting options until everyone was happy? And have 4 million people vote for one of sixteen thousand flags? 
This isn't fucking primary school where everyone wins a prize.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="560849" data-time="1456434754">I've seen the "no graphic designers or vexiwhatsits involved!" argument flying around. Most of the time it is preceded by "That bastard John Key made sure" :think: 
It really comes down to opinion. It's art - you like it, you may not. Either way, no Mac-using hipster with a degree in drawing pretty lines is likely to change that. 
If the process was broken, then what was the answer? Keep adding flags to the voting options until everyone was happy? And have 4 million people vote for one of sixteen thousand flags? 
This isn't fucking primary school where everyone wins a prize.</blockquote>
 
This . 
Also , why is the rsas opinion so important ? I remember dad telling me how his local branch tried to kick out a couple of members for joining the springbok protests. I know that's a fair while ago but they don't strike me as a particularly progressive organisation when it comes to change.

Mokey

The flawed process argument is a giant red herring. Not sure what else they could have done - even (annoyingly) bowed to that ghastly social media hijack with the shit red peak.
 
But firstly, if people chose not to have their ballot say, that is their own fucking fault for being lazy assholes not the government's. Secondly, you can't bitch about process just cos it reveals thousands of people disagree with your view. Thirdly 'I hate the PM' is a selfish, childish, moronic reason to sabotage a debate on the flag.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="560848" data-time="1456434672">
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I'm not buying into the "process was flawed" line to be honest , they had a committee with a decent cross section of nz , opened it to public submissions and had a roadshow around the country , narrowed it down to forty and we got to vote on the final four. The process was fucked up mostly by activists who came up with bullshit reasons to keep it and invented concerns like having no vexilogists on the committee add the red peak twitter campaign which resulted in the govt allowing it into the options I fail to see what more they could have done to make the process better in the face of such unrelenting fuckwittery.
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Most of the arguments are valid for the flawed process - it's eerily similar to the Australian republic vote in 1999 where the model put up was so unpalatable to the general public that it was rejected despite a clear majority of the population favouring a move to a republic.
 
Assuming you favour a change I don't believe anyone can look at the final four options and believe that is the best we can do.
 
I would have inverted the process, vote do you want to change yes/no. If that got up then do your informal yet extensive market research to find out what components and colours we most favour in a flag, have a small but accountable committee come up with a handful of options behind close doors and the have the govt of the day pick whichever they desire (facing the political consequences if they pick a travesty).
 
We will never change the flag if we go about it this. It's like designing a child with your partner - if you had to design one from scratch (will it be a boy/girl, what level of intelligence should it have, what hair colour, skin tone etc etc) you'd probably give up halfway through after unthinking yourself and decide you are better off without one anyway. Instead you get whatever you get and learn to love it regardless (or so I'm told). I don't need to see this sausage be made so publicly.

Billy Tell

One of the arguments is the cost. Usually by people who also say that the process hasn't been democratic enough. How do you make something more democratic but cost less??
 
Apparently 18M is postage. I don't think internet voting is a runner for all the myriad reasons of security, making sure people who vote are who they are supposed to be etc. So how much would it cost if it was traditional voting via the polling stations? 2 Saturdays where polling booths are opened nationwide. I suspect that also would cost millions of dollars.
 
Then there is the brigade who wanted an initial vote: current flag vs some as yet unrevealed flag - yes or no? I find it hard to believe that people think that would be democratic: you will have a core people of people who will always vote for the current flag, a core group who will always vote for change even if that means Laser Kiwi, and then a large group who when we faced with the current flag or some vague other flag would probably stick with the current flag. I'd probably fall into that group.
 
Then there are those who want change, but not to Lockwood. If I knew 100% that we would get another vote in 12 months, I might stick with the current flag. But then again, how likely the next time round that the new proposed flag is dramatically better than the Lockwood design?
 
I don't think politicians will touch this again in a long long time. I wouldn't be surprised if you're talking a minimum of 10 years before a flag vote would even be a remote possibility.
 
 
 
Anyway, ideas on a postcard please: a more democratic process that costs less...

jegga

Interesting take but considering the asinine behaviour we've seen over the last few months I guarentee #votenotojohnkeysvanityptoject would have been trending a nanosecond after the press conference announcing the referendum . There was a roadshow after the committe narrowed it down to a final forty and it seems like they did some pretty decent research into the public preferences when the numbers about red peak and how badly it polled first time around . 
Personly I wanted the red and black Lockwood flag out of the two , it didn't get in that's life.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="560857" data-time="1456440554">
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Most of the arguments are valid for the flawed process - it's eerily similar to the Australian republic vote in 1999 where the model put up was so unpalatable to the general public that it was rejected despite a clear majority of the population favouring a move to a republic.
 
Assuming you favour a change I don't believe anyone can look at the final four options and believe that is the best we can do.
 
I would have inverted the process, vote do you want to change yes/no. If that got up then do your informal yet extensive market research to find out what components and colours we most favour in a flag, have a small but accountable committee come up with a handful of options behind close doors and the have the govt of the day pick whichever they desire (facing the political consequences if they pick a travesty).
 
We will never change the flag if we go about it this. It's like designing a child with your partner - if you had to design one from scratch (will it be a boy/girl, what level of intelligence should it have, what hair colour, skin tone etc etc) you'd probably give up halfway through after unthinking yourself and decide you are better off without one anyway. Instead you get whatever you get and learn to love it regardless (or so I'm told). I don't need to see this sausage be made so publicly.
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The more people that are directly involved in the design process the worse the result. A camel is a horse devised by committee as they say. I read that the new South Africa flag was actually based on a competition winning concept that was consequently modified by a panel of "experts" and this sounds reasonable. However, the anti-Key crazies have helped to ensure that the whole process has been a circus rather than a rational process of change

Billy Tell

<img height="601" src="https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/27787-nz-flag-3.jpg" width="1200" alt="27787-nz-flag-3.jpg">
 
Something like this would have been my preference. Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why the Southern Cross is seen as being a NZ icon.

Hooroo

Probably becasue it is always in our night sky.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="560857" data-time="1456440554">
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Most of the arguments are valid for the flawed process - it's eerily similar to the Australian republic vote in 1999 where the model put up was so unpalatable to the general public that it was rejected despite a clear majority of the population favouring a move to a republic.
 
Assuming you favour a change I don't believe anyone can look at the final four options and believe that is the best we can do.
 
I would have inverted the process, vote do you want to change yes/no. If that got up then do your informal yet extensive market research to find out what components and colours we most favour in a flag, have a small but accountable committee come up with a handful of options behind close doors and the have the govt of the day pick whichever they desire (facing the political consequences if they pick a travesty).
 
We will never change the flag if we go about it this. It's like designing a child with your partner - if you had to design one from scratch (will it be a boy/girl, what level of intelligence should it have, what hair colour, skin tone etc etc) you'd probably give up halfway through after unthinking yourself and decide you are better off without one anyway. Instead you get whatever you get and learn to love it regardless (or so I'm told). I don't need to see this sausage be made so publicly.
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If you like the new flag that is going up against the current flag I suspect you would have little issues with the process, all about perception.

The Silver Fern

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