Flag
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<p>One of the arguments is the cost. Usually by people who also say that the process hasn't been democratic enough. How do you make something more democratic but cost less??</p>
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<p>Apparently 18M is postage. I don't think internet voting is a runner for all the myriad reasons of security, making sure people who vote are who they are supposed to be etc. So how much would it cost if it was traditional voting via the polling stations? 2 Saturdays where polling booths are opened nationwide. I suspect that also would cost millions of dollars.</p>
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<p>Then there is the brigade who wanted an initial vote: current flag vs some as yet unrevealed flag - yes or no? I find it hard to believe that people think that would be democratic: you will have a core people of people who will always vote for the current flag, a core group who will always vote for change even if that means Laser Kiwi, and then a large group who when we faced with the current flag or some vague other flag would probably stick with the current flag. I'd probably fall into that group.</p>
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<p>Then there are those who want change, but not to Lockwood. If I knew 100% that we would get another vote in 12 months, I might stick with the current flag. But then again, how likely the next time round that the new proposed flag is dramatically better than the Lockwood design?</p>
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<p>I don't think politicians will touch this again in a long long time. I wouldn't be surprised if you're talking a minimum of 10 years before a flag vote would even be a remote possibility.</p>
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<p>Anyway, ideas on a postcard please: a more democratic process that costs less...</p> -
Interesting take but considering the asinine behaviour we've seen over the last few months I guarentee #votenotojohnkeysvanityptoject would have been trending a nanosecond after the press conference announcing the referendum . There was a roadshow after the committe narrowed it down to a final forty and it seems like they did some pretty decent research into the public preferences when the numbers about red peak and how badly it polled first time around .<br><br>
Personly I wanted the red and black Lockwood flag out of the two , it didn't get in that's life. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="560857" data-time="1456440554">
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<p>Most of the arguments are valid for the flawed process - it's eerily similar to the Australian republic vote in 1999 where the model put up was so unpalatable to the general public that it was rejected despite a clear majority of the population favouring a move to a republic.</p>
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<p>Assuming you favour a change I don't believe anyone can look at the final four options and believe that is the best we can do.</p>
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<p>I would have inverted the process, vote do you want to change yes/no. If that got up then do your informal yet extensive market research to find out what components and colours we most favour in a flag, have a small but accountable committee come up with a handful of options behind close doors and the have the govt of the day pick whichever they desire (facing the political consequences if they pick a travesty).</p>
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<p>We will never change the flag if we go about it this. It's like designing a child with your partner - if you had to design one from scratch (will it be a boy/girl, what level of intelligence should it have, what hair colour, skin tone etc etc) you'd probably give up halfway through after unthinking yourself and decide you are better off without one anyway. Instead you get whatever you get and learn to love it regardless (or so I'm told). I don't need to see this sausage be made so publicly.</p>
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<p>The more people that are directly involved in the design process the worse the result. A camel is a horse devised by committee as they say. I read that the new South Africa flag was actually based on a competition winning concept that was consequently modified by a panel of "experts" and this sounds reasonable. However, the anti-Key crazies have helped to ensure that the whole process has been a circus rather than a rational process of change</p> -
<p><img height="601" src="https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/27787-nz-flag-3.jpg" width="1200" alt="27787-nz-flag-3.jpg"></p>
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<p>Something like this would have been my preference. Maybe it's just me, but I don't know why the Southern Cross is seen as being a NZ icon.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="560857" data-time="1456440554">
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<p>Most of the arguments are valid for the flawed process - it's eerily similar to the Australian republic vote in 1999 where the model put up was so unpalatable to the general public that it was rejected despite a clear majority of the population favouring a move to a republic.</p>
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<p><strong>Assuming you favour a change I don't believe anyone can look at the final four options and believe that is the best we can do.</strong></p>
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<p>I would have inverted the process, vote do you want to change yes/no. If that got up then do your informal yet extensive market research to find out what components and colours we most favour in a flag, have a small but accountable committee come up with a handful of options behind close doors and the have the govt of the day pick whichever they desire (facing the political consequences if they pick a travesty).</p>
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<p>We will never change the flag if we go about it this. It's like designing a child with your partner - if you had to design one from scratch (will it be a boy/girl, what level of intelligence should it have, what hair colour, skin tone etc etc) you'd probably give up halfway through after unthinking yourself and decide you are better off without one anyway. Instead you get whatever you get and learn to love it regardless (or so I'm told). I don't need to see this sausage be made so publicly.</p>
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<p>If you like the new flag that is going up against the current flag I suspect you would have little issues with the process, all about perception.</p> -
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<p>Anyway fuckwits of the leftard community, here is your problem.</p>
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<p>I'm pro the change, but i'm not sure I cared enough to vote. But I do now. And I'll be voting against you and your utterly ridiculous infantile thoughts.</p>
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<p>I'm just one person, but I'm 100% positive there are thousands more in the same situation.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="560890" data-time="1456445896">
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<p>"The process is fkawed argument" seems to boil down to "I didn't get a design I like".<br><br>
I like the alternative.<br><br>
Vote change!!!</p>
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<p>I would vote for change, despite the fact I didn't get the choice I liked and I think the process was flawed ....</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="560884" data-time="1456445086"><p>Anyway fuckwits of the leftard community, here is your problem.<br>
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I'm pro the change, but i'm not sure I cared enough to vote. But I do now. And I'll be voting against you and your utterly ridiculous infantile thoughts.<br>
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I'm just one person, but I'm 100% positive there are thousands more in the same situation.</p></blockquote>
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Might as well end the thread there. ( cheers and applause) -
<p>Oh my god, MR. I feel infinitely more stupid having read those FB posts. Calling Richie a traitor along the lines of Coutts? That is crossing a giant fucking line. As for the moron claiming only those who voted in the first round will get sent papers, I can't even.</p>
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<p>If anything, this debunks the whole survival of the fittest theory, because we seem to have a fuckton of fucktards running around.</p> -
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<p>I would have inverted the process, vote do you want to change yes/no. If that got up then do your informal yet extensive market research to find out what components and colours we most favour in a flag, have a small but accountable committee come up with a handful of options behind close doors and the have the govt of the day pick whichever they desire (facing the political consequences if they pick a travesty).</p>
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<p>How would that have worked? If I had been asked "do you want to change the flag, yes/no" my immediate response would have been "why, what are you offering as an alternative?".</p>
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<p>Without giving people an alternative up front voting yes to a change isn't making a choice, it's just rejecting the status quo. You'd have to have a real ideological dislike for the current flag to do that. While I'm open to the idea of a new flag if the right alternative is put before me I don't feel strongly enough to simply reject the existing one out of hand.</p>
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<p>As far as I can see it had to be done this way round.</p> -
<p>it would also add to the suspicion that already exists that a flag has already been chosen if you are not given a choice.</p>
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<p>It'd be like your boss saying you currently drive a KIA Sorrento for your company car, "do you want a new car or not?" Er, what will I get, well we have decided yet, it could be a Ford Fiesta, a Toyota Vitz or maybe a Ferrari....at which point you'd be thinking, like fuck they are getting me a Ferrari, I think I'll keep what I have!</p>
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<p>haha not the best analogy, but works for me :)</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MajorRage" data-cid="560884" data-time="1456445086">
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<p>Anyway fuckwits of the leftard community, here is your problem.</p>
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<p>I'm pro the change, but i'm not sure I cared enough to vote. But I do now. And I'll be voting against you and your utterly ridiculous infantile thoughts.</p>
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<p>I'm just one person, but I'm 100% positive there are thousands more in the same situation.</p>
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<p>I'm exactly the same :)</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Nepia" data-cid="560902" data-time="1456448173"><p>I would vote for change, despite the fact I didn't get the choice I liked and I think the process was flawed ....</p></blockquote>
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How was the process flawed? I think " the process was flawed" is to the flag as " the negotiations were done in secret" is to the TPPA . A red herring leftards have seized upon as a reason for not supporting it.
