The Cane vs Savea Debate
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@mariner4life said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
are the last 2 weekends Cane's best tests ever?
It certainly is in terms of a more complete game. He’s been in the ABs for almost 8 seasons, so his time is now to really elevate his game.
I do remember a game back in 2013 where he and Messam and Read were our starting loose trio and Cane showed us what could be possible.
On Ardie starting at no8, I wonder if he is part of the leadership team and he is going to be a key guy to help galvanise a few of our players. He’s made a few big plays for us in the first 2 tests so I think they will persist with it for at least the first Test in Oz.
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I don't see Savea playing much at 7 again, certainly not for the Hurricanes. He wasn't that impressive in the North-South game in that position. In the ABs, Ardie is obviously the backup to Cane in the 23 but Frizell is the player who is subbed and Savea moves to 6. That tells us what the coaches think of him.
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Something different entirely, but Ardie has expressed interest in moving overseas or to league, this year. He hasn't won a RWC, yet, so will he stay until after 2023, or will he leave when his contract expires at the end of 2021? So what happens in terms of ABs selections may impact negotiations/decisions ...
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Sotutu has been the best 8 in NZ all year, and he's just a kid. Pick him.
Savea is a really good player, but quite an unusual one. A smallish guy pumping the legs and never giving up is awesome, but it isn't going to get you much traction in the early stages of a tight test with an organised defence, and we've seen that a few times now. You need a little momentum, or a little gap, or a tired defender who thinks you're already tackled to get the benefit of that - and that benefit is only going to increase when he is fresh against tiring defenders - which is part of why he's a great bench option. Same goes for his tackling. Certainly skilled enough to cover all 3 spots, and a great asset to the team.
I'd be picking a big guy - Frizz deserves his spot, and Ioane is an option too - and subbing them for Savea once they're poked.@reprobate said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Sotutu has been the best 8 in NZ all year, and he's just a kid. Pick him.
Savea is a really good player, but quite an unusual one. A smallish guy pumping the legs and never giving up is awesome, but it isn't going to get you much traction in the early stages of a tight test with an organised defence, and we've seen that a few times now. You need a little momentum, or a little gap, or a tired defender who thinks you're already tackled to get the benefit of that - and that benefit is only going to increase when he is fresh against tiring defenders - which is part of why he's a great bench option. Same goes for his tackling. Certainly skilled enough to cover all 3 spots, and a great asset to the team.
I'd be picking a big guy - Frizz deserves his spot, and Ioane is an option too - and subbing them for Savea once they're poked.Plenty of time for Sotutu, I think.
We've got a couple of games against Argentina and - if we can beat the Aussies next time - we'll have a Bled dead-rubber game against them as well - I think those are the games we'll see people like Hoskins starting and a mix including Will Jordan, Akira, Aumua, Lomax, Papali'i and Grace (though not all at once).
Interesting times ahead.
Seems like we've got quite a queue in the loose forwards awaiting a shot - which might mean we have to wait till next year now to see Big Red Robinson get his chance. That's a pity, because he might be the best of all of them.
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@reprobate said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Sotutu has been the best 8 in NZ all year, and he's just a kid. Pick him.
Savea is a really good player, but quite an unusual one. A smallish guy pumping the legs and never giving up is awesome, but it isn't going to get you much traction in the early stages of a tight test with an organised defence, and we've seen that a few times now. You need a little momentum, or a little gap, or a tired defender who thinks you're already tackled to get the benefit of that - and that benefit is only going to increase when he is fresh against tiring defenders - which is part of why he's a great bench option. Same goes for his tackling. Certainly skilled enough to cover all 3 spots, and a great asset to the team.
I'd be picking a big guy - Frizz deserves his spot, and Ioane is an option too - and subbing them for Savea once they're poked.Plenty of time for Sotutu, I think.
We've got a couple of games against Argentina and - if we can beat the Aussies next time - we'll have a Bled dead-rubber game against them as well - I think those are the games we'll see people like Hoskins starting and a mix including Will Jordan, Akira, Aumua, Lomax, Papali'i and Grace (though not all at once).
Interesting times ahead.
Seems like we've got quite a queue in the loose forwards awaiting a shot - which might mean we have to wait till next year now to see Big Red Robinson get his chance. That's a pity, because he might be the best of all of them.
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@reprobate said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Sotutu has been the best 8 in NZ all year, and he's just a kid. Pick him.
Savea is a really good player, but quite an unusual one. A smallish guy pumping the legs and never giving up is awesome, but it isn't going to get you much traction in the early stages of a tight test with an organised defence, and we've seen that a few times now. You need a little momentum, or a little gap, or a tired defender who thinks you're already tackled to get the benefit of that - and that benefit is only going to increase when he is fresh against tiring defenders - which is part of why he's a great bench option. Same goes for his tackling. Certainly skilled enough to cover all 3 spots, and a great asset to the team.
I'd be picking a big guy - Frizz deserves his spot, and Ioane is an option too - and subbing them for Savea once they're poked.Plenty of time for Sotutu, I think.
We've got a couple of games against Argentina and - if we can beat the Aussies next time - we'll have a Bled dead-rubber game against them as well - I think those are the games we'll see people like Hoskins starting and a mix including Will Jordan, Akira, Aumua, Lomax, Papali'i and Grace (though not all at once).
Interesting times ahead.
Seems like we've got quite a queue in the loose forwards awaiting a shot - which might mean we have to wait till next year now to see Big Red Robinson get his chance. That's a pity, because he might be the best of all of them.
With the lack of lock talent at the moment he might be best used in the second row.
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@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@reprobate said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Sotutu has been the best 8 in NZ all year, and he's just a kid. Pick him.
Savea is a really good player, but quite an unusual one. A smallish guy pumping the legs and never giving up is awesome, but it isn't going to get you much traction in the early stages of a tight test with an organised defence, and we've seen that a few times now. You need a little momentum, or a little gap, or a tired defender who thinks you're already tackled to get the benefit of that - and that benefit is only going to increase when he is fresh against tiring defenders - which is part of why he's a great bench option. Same goes for his tackling. Certainly skilled enough to cover all 3 spots, and a great asset to the team.
I'd be picking a big guy - Frizz deserves his spot, and Ioane is an option too - and subbing them for Savea once they're poked.Plenty of time for Sotutu, I think.
We've got a couple of games against Argentina and - if we can beat the Aussies next time - we'll have a Bled dead-rubber game against them as well - I think those are the games we'll see people like Hoskins starting and a mix including Will Jordan, Akira, Aumua, Lomax, Papali'i and Grace (though not all at once).
Interesting times ahead.
Seems like we've got quite a queue in the loose forwards awaiting a shot - which might mean we have to wait till next year now to see Big Red Robinson get his chance. That's a pity, because he might be the best of all of them.
With the lack of lock talent at the moment he might be best used in the second row.
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@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@reprobate said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Sotutu has been the best 8 in NZ all year, and he's just a kid. Pick him.
Savea is a really good player, but quite an unusual one. A smallish guy pumping the legs and never giving up is awesome, but it isn't going to get you much traction in the early stages of a tight test with an organised defence, and we've seen that a few times now. You need a little momentum, or a little gap, or a tired defender who thinks you're already tackled to get the benefit of that - and that benefit is only going to increase when he is fresh against tiring defenders - which is part of why he's a great bench option. Same goes for his tackling. Certainly skilled enough to cover all 3 spots, and a great asset to the team.
I'd be picking a big guy - Frizz deserves his spot, and Ioane is an option too - and subbing them for Savea once they're poked.Plenty of time for Sotutu, I think.
We've got a couple of games against Argentina and - if we can beat the Aussies next time - we'll have a Bled dead-rubber game against them as well - I think those are the games we'll see people like Hoskins starting and a mix including Will Jordan, Akira, Aumua, Lomax, Papali'i and Grace (though not all at once).
Interesting times ahead.
Seems like we've got quite a queue in the loose forwards awaiting a shot - which might mean we have to wait till next year now to see Big Red Robinson get his chance. That's a pity, because he might be the best of all of them.
With the lack of lock talent at the moment he might be best used in the second row.
@Kirwan said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Chris-B said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@reprobate said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Sotutu has been the best 8 in NZ all year, and he's just a kid. Pick him.
Savea is a really good player, but quite an unusual one. A smallish guy pumping the legs and never giving up is awesome, but it isn't going to get you much traction in the early stages of a tight test with an organised defence, and we've seen that a few times now. You need a little momentum, or a little gap, or a tired defender who thinks you're already tackled to get the benefit of that - and that benefit is only going to increase when he is fresh against tiring defenders - which is part of why he's a great bench option. Same goes for his tackling. Certainly skilled enough to cover all 3 spots, and a great asset to the team.
I'd be picking a big guy - Frizz deserves his spot, and Ioane is an option too - and subbing them for Savea once they're poked.Plenty of time for Sotutu, I think.
We've got a couple of games against Argentina and - if we can beat the Aussies next time - we'll have a Bled dead-rubber game against them as well - I think those are the games we'll see people like Hoskins starting and a mix including Will Jordan, Akira, Aumua, Lomax, Papali'i and Grace (though not all at once).
Interesting times ahead.
Seems like we've got quite a queue in the loose forwards awaiting a shot - which might mean we have to wait till next year now to see Big Red Robinson get his chance. That's a pity, because he might be the best of all of them.
With the lack of lock talent at the moment he might be best used in the second row.
Squire might come back on the radar there also?
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
A better thread would be who should be at 8. Ardie was pretty damn good yesterday.
oooh yeah, but his height! Jokes aside, he looks fairly tall here - struck me from last week
@nzzp Clearly helps he is standing next to one of the shortest blokes in the team, maybe he has an inch hidden in his boots. At the end of the day I think his height is largely irrelevant. He takes plenty of lineout ball, makes plenty of metres and dom tackles, everything you want from your 8.
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There are shorter international no.8s around than Ardie. CJ Stander and Pete Samu are examples.
@Bovidae said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
There are shorter international no.8s around than Ardie. CJ Stander and Pete Samu are examples.
And they don’t have and extra half foot of furs.
If Ardie is going to be out next Rodders then I’m all in, but we can’t expect him (like Rodders) to be something he is not.
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@Bovidae said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
There are shorter international no.8s around than Ardie. CJ Stander and Pete Samu are examples.
And they don’t have and extra half foot of furs.
If Ardie is going to be out next Rodders then I’m all in, but we can’t expect him (like Rodders) to be something he is not.
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@ACT-Crusader
Like 1.93m tall and 117 kg?
@chimoaus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@ACT-Crusader
Like 1.93m tall and 117 kg?I see short back and sides...
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@nostrildamus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
> I kind of wonder how you could compare Cane and Savea directly since one is no longer subbing for the other. Perhaps the best test is to say who seems most vital/indispensable?Currently that seems to be Cane, hard to see how Savea would be playing better than him at 7 for 80 minutes.
PS Savea had some great moments at 8 but I am still not convinced overall that he is the best international 8 in NZ but we are not really getting a chance to look at his replacement/sub/2nd in line...Get out of here with that sort of sensible logic!
@voodoo said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@nostrildamus said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
> I kind of wonder how you could compare Cane and Savea directly since one is no longer subbing for the other. Perhaps the best test is to say who seems most vital/indispensable?Currently that seems to be Cane, hard to see how Savea would be playing better than him at 7 for 80 minutes.
PS Savea had some great moments at 8 but I am still not convinced overall that he is the best international 8 in NZ but we are not really getting a chance to look at his replacement/sub/2nd in line...Get out of here with that sort of sensible logic!
Don't worry, I can feel any sensible logic I might have evaporating on a minute by minute basis.
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Cane is obviously a test quality player and likely the best in his position, but perhaps a new coach will consider his captaincy ability. I say this as a big fan of his.
@mofitzy_ said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Cane is obviously a test quality player and likely the best in his position, but perhaps a new coach will consider his captaincy ability. I say this as a big fan of his.
Unless a new coach is going to pick a Savea as his captain then this point is completely irrelevant
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@mofitzy_ said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Cane is obviously a test quality player and likely the best in his position, but perhaps a new coach will consider his captaincy ability. I say this as a big fan of his.
Unless a new coach is going to pick a Savea as his captain then this point is completely irrelevant
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@mofitzy_ said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@junior
How is it irrelevant? Cane can be starting in the team and not captain.I’m saying it’s irrelevant to the Cane vs Savea debate
@junior said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@mofitzy_ said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@junior
How is it irrelevant? Cane can be starting in the team and not captain.I’m saying it’s irrelevant to the Cane vs Savea debate
No, I see the point.
While Cane is captain, he starts and he stays.
If not captain, that is another factor to consider in the debate.
I'd still have Cane to start, but I'd be tempted to have Savea on the bench.
Arguably he covers 7 plus 6 and 8 the best of the contenders, he is arguably in the top 2 7s in the country, and his speed is handy in the last 20-30 minutes. -
Could Ardie be our next Rodders though? I see plenty of similarities but like Rodders there are detractors and critics that say we aren’t getting this or that.
Savea’s workrate has really lifted and I was critical of him last year of ball watching a bit and looking to pounce. This year he has been very involved.
Balance is key but I know when the Collins, McCaw, Rodders trio started there were many critics of a lack of balance. Some wanted Lauaki or Tuiali’i or a taller LO option blindside etc. I thought that after time together they worked out how utilise their strengths to the benefit of the team.
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Could Ardie be our next Rodders though? I see plenty of similarities but like Rodders there are detractors and critics that say we aren’t getting this or that.
Savea’s workrate has really lifted and I was critical of him last year of ball watching a bit and looking to pounce. This year he has been very involved.
Balance is key but I know when the Collins, McCaw, Rodders trio started there were many critics of a lack of balance. Some wanted Lauaki or Tuiali’i or a taller LO option blindside etc. I thought that after time together they worked out how utilise their strengths to the benefit of the team.
@ACT-Crusader said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Tuiali’i
I thought he was pretty good and a bit unlucky.
