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taniwharugby

I dont want to deny the health service to overweight people or anyone, but I guess they, like other addicts need to want to lose weight, and so many dont.
 
 I guess with so many overweight people, they are now starting to contribute on a more proportionate level :fishing:

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="566039" data-time="1458444873">Do overweight people actually detract from your day to day living? 
 
Do they actually negatively impact the life you guys can lead? 
 
I'm not being a shit stirrer here but one of the things I've learned in Asia is their, not so much tolerance, but just general pragmatic "so what" to people's appearance and even behaviour. 
 
For sure, affect their families or livlihood and they'll arc up, but the prevailing attitude is live and let live and "up to them" with a shrug 
 
That might be because life is more of a struggle in these densely populated places (no social security etc), but it's quite refreshing. 
 
I find the people in the west more outwardly judgemental and just wonder why that is. You've got to have your opinions and for sure go for it, I just wonder if we're not getting sucked in to wasting braincells on the utterly trivial 
 
Don't pull the drain on taxpayers card either, that's not a realistic argument. Governments would tax watching rugby if they could get away with it and then we'd be in the same boat as smokers and the obese, as it were. 
 
Just wondering is all</blockquote>Are they tolerant or just don't really care? I'd suspect most Asian countries don't have the sort of public health system we enjoy

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="566074" data-time="1458451962">
<div>
Are they tolerant or just don't really care? I'd suspect most Asian countries don't have the sort of public health system we enjoy
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Generalising but I guess because they don't really care it comes across as tolerant. It's refreshing that (in my circles anyway) there is not as much stigma attached with appearance in that they'll call it as it is - fat, black, thin, white, gay etc and no offense is meant or taken - imagine that?
 
But it ain't no utopia as the contents of a wallet is used to discriminate in often disgusting ways. Also generally the desired appearance is to be fat and white, i.e. You've got money for food and enough wealth not to work outdoors.
 
It is strange when old friends you haven't seen for a while openly express, with genuine affection and goodwill - "my god you've got fat!"

NTA

Today if you get medical procedures done, or apply for health/life insurance, you have to give them your smoking status. It will affect the loading on your insurance in pretty much every case. For life insurance I know from personal experience that a BMI over a certain amount will slap a 50% premium on your policy.
 
In the case where you are getting an operation of serious import, they need weight for drug load etc. 
 
So maybe, whenever we get a patient going in to see the GP, or getting a procedure done, or admitted to hospital, their weight and height is registered along with their blood pressure. Too many fails in the relevant categories, and you are given a warning that any future visits will require a copayment.
 
Combine that with a sugar tax, and remove the compulsory health portion of everybody's income tax.
 
Fat people pay for their health, everyone else doesn't have to. The end.

Donsteppa

And then non-drinkers object to their taxes going towards the health/policing/licencing costs of drinkers and drinking establishments, so they demand a whole lot of exclusions ("the end"), and so on, and so on, and we start ending up like... the US pre ObamaCare? 
Reckon Siam has got this one about on the money.

NTA

OK then, don't remove the health portion of tax. Just increase it for fat people until they show progress.

jegga

My issue is real issue with it isn't so much the money but people who could have prevented becoming ill through their own bad lifestyle choices joining the waiting list or getting bumped up the waiting list because they still won't change the way they live their lives and their health deteriorates . 
most hospitals do X amount of surgeries s year. I watched my dad get bumped off them for two years till he was too weak to survive the anaesthetic.

Donsteppa

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="566118" data-time="1458462471">OK then, don't remove the health portion of tax. Just increase it for fat people until they show progress.</blockquote>
 
Why not the same for alcoholics, "social drinkers", stoners, etc...? 
I'm not advocating that being Fat Bastard is healthy, but it just seems to be an easy, literally visible target.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="566120" data-time="1458462874">Why not the same for alcoholics, "social drinkers", stoners, etc...? 
I'm not advocating that being Fat Bastard is healthy, but it just seems to be an easy, literally visible target.</blockquote>It is a complicated matter don and I agree, where does it end?

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="566120" data-time="1458462874">
Why not the same for alcoholics, "social drinkers", stoners, etc...? 
I'm not advocating that being Fat Bastard is healthy, but it just seems to be an easy, literally visible target.</blockquote>
 
It should be the and for them too. Next month a whole bunch of health and safety changes come into force , because the penalties are far more severe I bet drug testing is going to be way more common and frequent . Being a stoner is going to impact you way more in the future . 
My acc rates are way higher than an office worker I don't see why people who make bad lifestyle choices should be treated the same as those who don't by the health system .

NTA

I think of the health system like I do the dole - its there as a safety net.
 
The problem is, we have a couple of generations now on the dole who are satisfied with it (bit of a crossover with the US election/hillbilly heroin stuff here) and born into it. Back in the day, it was a bit of a badge of shame to need the dole, but there are swathes of people on it who now laugh at the government. Their kids laugh at their teachers, and police.
 
Where does that end? Is that satisfactory?
 
 
This chick talking about discrimination against fat people is just another one in the line of The Great Offended. And this "big but healthy" thing has a limit, as many people find out too late.
 
You can't help being too tall for an airplane seat, but sure as fuck you can help being too fat. 
 
I went to the Royal Easter Show today, and must say that the percentage of seriously overweight people was alarming. Maybe because it was a greater cross-section of society than I'm used to at one time, but when you see a family of three generations, all fat, all hoeing into a pile of deep-fried shit with one hand, and a ciggy in the other, you just can't see a way out for them.
 
And that's the heartbreaking bit: like the dole culture, their kids will never know anything except microwave meals, sugar-laden bullshit cheap food, and dead tastebuds due to passive cigarette smoking.
 
Which is fine because they fucking take it up at 15 anyway.

reprobate

taxing unhealthy food is the equivalent of what is done with smoking. it's the only realistic way to deal with it i think, along with education. as a nation, we are fucking, fucking fat, and it's not good. tricky thing to implement of course, which would mean we get more of everyone's favourite thing: bureaucrats.

NTA

Look that is probably true in terms of immediate impact to the tax bottom line. I'm not a politico-financial whizz or anything (clearly!)
 
It doesn't actually stop people. Taxing cigarettes didn't really stop people, though it slowed them down once it got to a certain point, but here in Oz the warnings and packaging and better education did far more.
 
As you say, it just creates another bunch of bureaucrats to govern it all, and then you're kind of stuck feeding the money into that machine until it hits critical mass, then you need to get more bureaucrats because KFC is popular, meaning more people are getting unhealthy and need more workers to push paper. Or the scheme is so wildly effective, you need to up the rate because fatness declines, but you can't just lay off all those government workers without a hefty bill.
 
It is worth noting that McDonald's and Coke have been seeing flat periods or even downturn in quarters over the past couple of years. That is some way to progress I suppose.
 
But it still doesn't like the health education thing in that well. I don't want to point and laugh at fat people in hospital who have to pay more money to go there. I want them to fucking stop killing themselves stupidly because our medical people have more important shit to work on.

canefan

No doubt things are changing. Take the maccas example, in response to dropping turnover they introduced healthier options and newer initiatives like McCafe. Sure they still sell a shit load of soda but it goes to show change doesn't necessarily need to be legislated. Breakfast and lunch initiatives in lower decile schools will hopefully help the younger generation develop better habits in a high risk group

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="566140" data-time="1458465741">
<div>
Breakfast and lunch initiatives in lower decile schools will hopefully help the younger generation develop better habits in a high risk group
</div>
</blockquote>
 
We don't have the setup to do any of that, to my knowledge. Or at least not in NSW. And its a shame.
 
As someone who had the privilege of parents who introduced a love of books and learning to me, as well as the fortune to receive above-average learning skills, I look at some kids and shake my head.
 
Some clown was on TV one night talking about the need to ensure even the poorest kids had access to early childhood education, even if its meant the government subsiding them to create an equal playing field.
 
DISCLAIMER: He owned a chain of childcare centres.
 
His point was that Asian kids were starting schooling at age 3 and they were learning second languages etc. And that we had to provide our kids with similar learning opportunities. 
 
But it is NEVER a level playing field, because despite all the fabulous learning those kids do at daycare, there is a percentage of them whose parents won't give a fuck, and can barely read them a bedtime story.

reprobate

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="566137" data-time="1458465063">
<div>
Look that is probably true in terms of immediate impact to the tax bottom line. I'm not a politico-financial whizz or anything (clearly!)
 
It doesn't actually stop people. Taxing cigarettes didn't really stop people, though it slowed them down once it got to a certain point, but here in Oz the warnings and packaging and better education did far more.
 
As you say, it just creates another bunch of bureaucrats to govern it all, and then you're kind of stuck feeding the money into that machine until it hits critical mass, then you need to get more bureaucrats because KFC is popular, meaning more people are getting unhealthy and need more workers to push paper. Or the scheme is so wildly effective, you need to up the rate because fatness declines, but you can't just lay off all those government workers without a hefty bill.
 
It is worth noting that McDonald's and Coke have been seeing flat periods or even downturn in quarters over the past couple of years. That is some way to progress I suppose.
 
But it still doesn't like the health education thing in that well. I don't want to point and laugh at fat people in hospital who have to pay more money to go there. I want them to fucking stop killing themselves stupidly because our medical people have more important shit to work on.
</div>
</blockquote>
i don't want the government to stop them, as i don't think that is their prerogative; i am for freedom of choice, and if someone wants to smoke or eat shit, then let them i say. while i'd certainly prefer they didn't, and i think educating them as to why it's a bad idea is an absolute must, it ought to still be up to them. 
taxing those choices makes sense though, as those choices have financial consequences for the public health system - and the masses shouldn't really have to chip in for fat albert's daily packet of chips and coke, or his pack of fags.
getting rid of gst on fresh fruit and veg isn't the worst idea.

NTA

We don't have GST on certain items here. Fresh produce doesn't PROVIDED it hasn't been prepared ("Services") in any way. 
There is some weird example where bread isn't subject to GST because as a staple, it burdens the poorest. OK then. 
That extends to bread rolls I believe - UNLESS those bread rolls have had something done to them like icing or filling. <a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Aboriginal-and-Torres-Strait-Islander-people/In-detail/GST---Helping-you-understand-your-GST-obligations/?page=3">https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Aboriginal-and-Torres-Strait-Islander-people/In-detail/GST---Helping-you-understand-your-GST-obligations/?page=3</a>

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="566146" data-time="1458468074">
<div>
We don't have GST on certain items here. Fresh produce doesn't PROVIDED it hasn't been prepared ("Services") in any way. 
There is some weird example where bread isn't subject to GST because as a staple, it burdens the poorest. OK then. 
That extends to bread rolls I believe - UNLESS those bread rolls have had something done to them like icing or filling. <a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Aboriginal-and-Torres-Strait-Islander-people/In-detail/GST---Helping-you-understand-your-GST-obligations/?page=3">https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Aboriginal-and-Torres-Strait-Islander-people/In-detail/GST---Helping-you-understand-your-GST-obligations/?page=3</a>
</div>
</blockquote>
The aussie GST schedule is quite unusual. I'm all for a GST drop or removal from primary produce, whether it will help those in the lower income groups though I'm not so sure. I'm sure you'll still see the lines of cars outside the takeaway chains out in Sth Auckland, GST or no

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="566146" data-time="1458468074">
<div>
We don't have GST on certain items here. Fresh produce doesn't PROVIDED it hasn't been prepared ("Services") in any way. 
There is some weird example where bread isn't subject to GST because as a staple, it burdens the poorest. OK then. 
That extends to bread rolls I believe - UNLESS those bread rolls have had something done to them like icing or filling. <a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Aboriginal-and-Torres-Strait-Islander-people/In-detail/GST---Helping-you-understand-your-GST-obligations/?page=3">https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Aboriginal-and-Torres-Strait-Islander-people/In-detail/GST---Helping-you-understand-your-GST-obligations/?page=3</a>
</div>
</blockquote>
 
My current client is from the Uk and has lived here for a while , works for IRD and worked for whatever the equivalent is called in the Uk. Anyway, he said our gst is superior to vat because it has no exemptions . It just gives lawyers an opportunity to make money for clients trying to rort it, this is the classic example he quoted, <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_Cakes#cite_note-which-13 '>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_Cakes#cite_note-which-13 </a>
You want to help out the poor change the tax brackets or make sure the vouchers they get from WINZ don't apply to soft drinks, cigarettes, alcohol etc etc.
 
I was in aussie when they bought in gst, the arguments about what should and shouldn't be exempt were funny in a sad kind of way.

NTA

It's fucked. Exemption is the mother of all shit storms

The Silver Fern

Awesome stuff you see on the internet