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NTA

Today if you get medical procedures done, or apply for health/life insurance, you have to give them your smoking status. It will affect the loading on your insurance in pretty much every case. For life insurance I know from personal experience that a BMI over a certain amount will slap a 50% premium on your policy.
 
In the case where you are getting an operation of serious import, they need weight for drug load etc. 
 
So maybe, whenever we get a patient going in to see the GP, or getting a procedure done, or admitted to hospital, their weight and height is registered along with their blood pressure. Too many fails in the relevant categories, and you are given a warning that any future visits will require a copayment.
 
Combine that with a sugar tax, and remove the compulsory health portion of everybody's income tax.
 
Fat people pay for their health, everyone else doesn't have to. The end.

Donsteppa

And then non-drinkers object to their taxes going towards the health/policing/licencing costs of drinkers and drinking establishments, so they demand a whole lot of exclusions ("the end"), and so on, and so on, and we start ending up like... the US pre ObamaCare? 
Reckon Siam has got this one about on the money.

NTA

OK then, don't remove the health portion of tax. Just increase it for fat people until they show progress.

jegga

My issue is real issue with it isn't so much the money but people who could have prevented becoming ill through their own bad lifestyle choices joining the waiting list or getting bumped up the waiting list because they still won't change the way they live their lives and their health deteriorates . 
most hospitals do X amount of surgeries s year. I watched my dad get bumped off them for two years till he was too weak to survive the anaesthetic.

Donsteppa

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="566118" data-time="1458462471">OK then, don't remove the health portion of tax. Just increase it for fat people until they show progress.</blockquote>
 
Why not the same for alcoholics, "social drinkers", stoners, etc...? 
I'm not advocating that being Fat Bastard is healthy, but it just seems to be an easy, literally visible target.

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="566120" data-time="1458462874">Why not the same for alcoholics, "social drinkers", stoners, etc...? 
I'm not advocating that being Fat Bastard is healthy, but it just seems to be an easy, literally visible target.</blockquote>It is a complicated matter don and I agree, where does it end?

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="566120" data-time="1458462874">
Why not the same for alcoholics, "social drinkers", stoners, etc...? 
I'm not advocating that being Fat Bastard is healthy, but it just seems to be an easy, literally visible target.</blockquote>
 
It should be the and for them too. Next month a whole bunch of health and safety changes come into force , because the penalties are far more severe I bet drug testing is going to be way more common and frequent . Being a stoner is going to impact you way more in the future . 
My acc rates are way higher than an office worker I don't see why people who make bad lifestyle choices should be treated the same as those who don't by the health system .

NTA

I think of the health system like I do the dole - its there as a safety net.
 
The problem is, we have a couple of generations now on the dole who are satisfied with it (bit of a crossover with the US election/hillbilly heroin stuff here) and born into it. Back in the day, it was a bit of a badge of shame to need the dole, but there are swathes of people on it who now laugh at the government. Their kids laugh at their teachers, and police.
 
Where does that end? Is that satisfactory?
 
 
This chick talking about discrimination against fat people is just another one in the line of The Great Offended. And this "big but healthy" thing has a limit, as many people find out too late.
 
You can't help being too tall for an airplane seat, but sure as fuck you can help being too fat. 
 
I went to the Royal Easter Show today, and must say that the percentage of seriously overweight people was alarming. Maybe because it was a greater cross-section of society than I'm used to at one time, but when you see a family of three generations, all fat, all hoeing into a pile of deep-fried shit with one hand, and a ciggy in the other, you just can't see a way out for them.
 
And that's the heartbreaking bit: like the dole culture, their kids will never know anything except microwave meals, sugar-laden bullshit cheap food, and dead tastebuds due to passive cigarette smoking.
 
Which is fine because they fucking take it up at 15 anyway.

reprobate

taxing unhealthy food is the equivalent of what is done with smoking. it's the only realistic way to deal with it i think, along with education. as a nation, we are fucking, fucking fat, and it's not good. tricky thing to implement of course, which would mean we get more of everyone's favourite thing: bureaucrats.

NTA

Look that is probably true in terms of immediate impact to the tax bottom line. I'm not a politico-financial whizz or anything (clearly!)
 
It doesn't actually stop people. Taxing cigarettes didn't really stop people, though it slowed them down once it got to a certain point, but here in Oz the warnings and packaging and better education did far more.
 
As you say, it just creates another bunch of bureaucrats to govern it all, and then you're kind of stuck feeding the money into that machine until it hits critical mass, then you need to get more bureaucrats because KFC is popular, meaning more people are getting unhealthy and need more workers to push paper. Or the scheme is so wildly effective, you need to up the rate because fatness declines, but you can't just lay off all those government workers without a hefty bill.
 
It is worth noting that McDonald's and Coke have been seeing flat periods or even downturn in quarters over the past couple of years. That is some way to progress I suppose.
 
But it still doesn't like the health education thing in that well. I don't want to point and laugh at fat people in hospital who have to pay more money to go there. I want them to fucking stop killing themselves stupidly because our medical people have more important shit to work on.

canefan

No doubt things are changing. Take the maccas example, in response to dropping turnover they introduced healthier options and newer initiatives like McCafe. Sure they still sell a shit load of soda but it goes to show change doesn't necessarily need to be legislated. Breakfast and lunch initiatives in lower decile schools will hopefully help the younger generation develop better habits in a high risk group

NTA

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="566140" data-time="1458465741">
<div>
Breakfast and lunch initiatives in lower decile schools will hopefully help the younger generation develop better habits in a high risk group
</div>
</blockquote>
 
We don't have the setup to do any of that, to my knowledge. Or at least not in NSW. And its a shame.
 
As someone who had the privilege of parents who introduced a love of books and learning to me, as well as the fortune to receive above-average learning skills, I look at some kids and shake my head.
 
Some clown was on TV one night talking about the need to ensure even the poorest kids had access to early childhood education, even if its meant the government subsiding them to create an equal playing field.
 
DISCLAIMER: He owned a chain of childcare centres.
 
His point was that Asian kids were starting schooling at age 3 and they were learning second languages etc. And that we had to provide our kids with similar learning opportunities. 
 
But it is NEVER a level playing field, because despite all the fabulous learning those kids do at daycare, there is a percentage of them whose parents won't give a fuck, and can barely read them a bedtime story.

reprobate

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="566137" data-time="1458465063">
<div>
Look that is probably true in terms of immediate impact to the tax bottom line. I'm not a politico-financial whizz or anything (clearly!)
 
It doesn't actually stop people. Taxing cigarettes didn't really stop people, though it slowed them down once it got to a certain point, but here in Oz the warnings and packaging and better education did far more.
 
As you say, it just creates another bunch of bureaucrats to govern it all, and then you're kind of stuck feeding the money into that machine until it hits critical mass, then you need to get more bureaucrats because KFC is popular, meaning more people are getting unhealthy and need more workers to push paper. Or the scheme is so wildly effective, you need to up the rate because fatness declines, but you can't just lay off all those government workers without a hefty bill.
 
It is worth noting that McDonald's and Coke have been seeing flat periods or even downturn in quarters over the past couple of years. That is some way to progress I suppose.
 
But it still doesn't like the health education thing in that well. I don't want to point and laugh at fat people in hospital who have to pay more money to go there. I want them to fucking stop killing themselves stupidly because our medical people have more important shit to work on.
</div>
</blockquote>
i don't want the government to stop them, as i don't think that is their prerogative; i am for freedom of choice, and if someone wants to smoke or eat shit, then let them i say. while i'd certainly prefer they didn't, and i think educating them as to why it's a bad idea is an absolute must, it ought to still be up to them. 
taxing those choices makes sense though, as those choices have financial consequences for the public health system - and the masses shouldn't really have to chip in for fat albert's daily packet of chips and coke, or his pack of fags.
getting rid of gst on fresh fruit and veg isn't the worst idea.

NTA

We don't have GST on certain items here. Fresh produce doesn't PROVIDED it hasn't been prepared ("Services") in any way. 
There is some weird example where bread isn't subject to GST because as a staple, it burdens the poorest. OK then. 
That extends to bread rolls I believe - UNLESS those bread rolls have had something done to them like icing or filling. <a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Aboriginal-and-Torres-Strait-Islander-people/In-detail/GST---Helping-you-understand-your-GST-obligations/?page=3">https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Aboriginal-and-Torres-Strait-Islander-people/In-detail/GST---Helping-you-understand-your-GST-obligations/?page=3</a>

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="566146" data-time="1458468074">
<div>
We don't have GST on certain items here. Fresh produce doesn't PROVIDED it hasn't been prepared ("Services") in any way. 
There is some weird example where bread isn't subject to GST because as a staple, it burdens the poorest. OK then. 
That extends to bread rolls I believe - UNLESS those bread rolls have had something done to them like icing or filling. <a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Aboriginal-and-Torres-Strait-Islander-people/In-detail/GST---Helping-you-understand-your-GST-obligations/?page=3">https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Aboriginal-and-Torres-Strait-Islander-people/In-detail/GST---Helping-you-understand-your-GST-obligations/?page=3</a>
</div>
</blockquote>
The aussie GST schedule is quite unusual. I'm all for a GST drop or removal from primary produce, whether it will help those in the lower income groups though I'm not so sure. I'm sure you'll still see the lines of cars outside the takeaway chains out in Sth Auckland, GST or no

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="566146" data-time="1458468074">
<div>
We don't have GST on certain items here. Fresh produce doesn't PROVIDED it hasn't been prepared ("Services") in any way. 
There is some weird example where bread isn't subject to GST because as a staple, it burdens the poorest. OK then. 
That extends to bread rolls I believe - UNLESS those bread rolls have had something done to them like icing or filling. <a class="bbc_url" href="https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Aboriginal-and-Torres-Strait-Islander-people/In-detail/GST---Helping-you-understand-your-GST-obligations/?page=3">https://www.ato.gov.au/General/Aboriginal-and-Torres-Strait-Islander-people/In-detail/GST---Helping-you-understand-your-GST-obligations/?page=3</a>
</div>
</blockquote>
 
My current client is from the Uk and has lived here for a while , works for IRD and worked for whatever the equivalent is called in the Uk. Anyway, he said our gst is superior to vat because it has no exemptions . It just gives lawyers an opportunity to make money for clients trying to rort it, this is the classic example he quoted, <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_Cakes#cite_note-which-13 '>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_Cakes#cite_note-which-13 </a>
You want to help out the poor change the tax brackets or make sure the vouchers they get from WINZ don't apply to soft drinks, cigarettes, alcohol etc etc.
 
I was in aussie when they bought in gst, the arguments about what should and shouldn't be exempt were funny in a sad kind of way.

NTA

It's fucked. Exemption is the mother of all shit storms

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="NTA" data-cid="566149" data-time="1458469314">
<div>
It's fucked. Exemption is the mother of all shit storms
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Yep, he said kids clothes are exempt too, some adults are small enough to fit them so get cheaper clothes.

gt12

Siam, 
Here in JP, being fat, putting on weight, etc. gets commented on so quickly that it's not funny. Huge expectation to keep yourself in healthy shape - reinforced by yearly health checks which involve extra check ups if you are considered too 'unhealthy' - one factor of which is a high BMI. 
For example, I'm 189/190cms tall and weigh between 82-84 kgs, depending on the day and alcohol/food of the previous weekend. I still get pulled up for being overweight. 
I raise this to say that there is Huuuuge social pressure here (which I'm sure you also see). It's just so different to NZ and the USA that I can't walk around NZ without constantly thinking 'how the fuck did all these people put on this weight?' Even though I hit 103 at 21 years old the last time I was a full time resident. 
I have no idea how to change societal ideas about weight and health, but it's clear that it is cultural/country specific. When I'm home in NZ, I'll put on 3 -4kgs in a week, even if I run everyday...

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gt12" data-cid="566155" data-time="1458471726">
<div>
Siam, 
Here in JP, being fat, putting on weight, etc. gets commented on so quickly that it's not funny. Huge expectation to keep yourself in healthy shape - reinforced by yearly health checks which involve extra check ups if you are considered too 'unhealthy' - one factor of which is a high BMI. 
For example, I'm 189/190cms tall and weigh between 82-84 kgs, depending on the day and alcohol/food of the previous weekend. I still get pulled up for being overweight. 
I raise this to say that there is Huuuuge social pressure here (which I'm sure you also see). It's just so different to NZ and the USA that I can't walk around NZ without constantly thinking 'how the fuck did all these people put on this weight?' Even though I hit 103 at 21 years old the last time I was a full time resident. 
I have no idea how to change societal ideas about weight and health, but it's clear that it is cultural/country specific. When I'm home in NZ, I'll put on 3 -4kgs in a week, even if I run everyday...
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Wow that's interesting, haven't noticed weight being a topic here
 
Dark skin is the pressure point here as I mentioned and a supposed link with being a poor farmer. People, chicks especially will go to great lengths to stay out of the sun and whitening creams are a multi billion dollar industry. Thais are inherently vane and the whole place is based on appearances
 
All those perfect bikini bodies and not a bikini in sight
 
It's all about being white and pretty. I think the heat and natural diet helps with the weight thing but the diet (and weight) is changing to more processed foods. The Philippines has an interesting phenomenon called a "Jolibee" body where nubile women stack on flab because of a burger franchise called Jolibee that makes MacDonalds seem like a ryvita shop

The Silver Fern

Awesome stuff you see on the internet