Black Caps v Pakistan

Rapido

@Rapido said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@Snowy said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@Rapido said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

He's a kid

Not sure that I would call Kyle that. He turns 26 in a couple of days. Inexperienced at test level, sure, but made his first class debut in 2014, was also in the NZ under 19s so been around for a bit.

What I like about him is attitude - he appears to be grumpy (like a fast bowler should be).
It also sounds like he has worked on his technique to get more speed and it seems to have been successful. He was low 130s I think, now seems to be high 130s and even more dangerous.

@Rapido said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

His batting is a bonus so far , looks organized, but his run output so far is based on aerial pulls, hooks, and slogs off spinners.

Definitely a bonus. His SR is 71 so at least he must be picking the correct balls to have slog at, not just wildly swinging (he's also played some classy shots too). We were looking to up the run rate in a couple of those innings as well so a few big hits were justified.

Weather going to be complete lottery today it seems. Showers, thunderstorms, hail. Usually those events are localised so might miss the ground if we are lucky.

I mean he is a test pup. 4 tests all at home. He has a core job he is still raw at and I presume needs to devote most of his practice and prep time to and his physical energy to during games.

First time I saw Jamieson he was only mid 120s, he was only mid 120s 2 years ago. Nothing should distract from the work going into his bowling which is on an incredible trajectory.

Jamieson's batting is tighter and better version of Tim Southee. SO far all he has shown has either been counter attacking aggresion or cherry on top aggression. He is not a 7, I doubt he will ever be a 7. Only way I could see hime being a 7 is a succesful unit is if we also had 8s and 9s of similarish output to lengthn the batting. Currently, if Jamieson goes 7 then Spouthee goes 8, so yeah ...

I can't actually remember if the post I was replying to was suggesting a Jamieson to 7 type situation or just generally shitting on Santner.

No doubt Santner is currently the weakest spot in the 11. Fairly good weakest link in my mind though. Provides a balance that allows a 4 prong seam attack.

Was pondering this watching Santnet before lunch thinking he's not really an all rounder as he's at 70-80% at both roles. He's not a batsman who bowls, nor a bowler who bats.

We need a new term for those NZ part-bat, part-bowl types.

I'm thinking "part rounder".

What is Jeff Crowe, Trevor Franklin. Nonesmen? Partsmen?

Hes an allrounder. Equalish at both, not quite test standard.

MN5

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewarded

Chris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy

MN5

@Rapido said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@Rapido said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@Snowy said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@Rapido said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

He's a kid

Not sure that I would call Kyle that. He turns 26 in a couple of days. Inexperienced at test level, sure, but made his first class debut in 2014, was also in the NZ under 19s so been around for a bit.

What I like about him is attitude - he appears to be grumpy (like a fast bowler should be).
It also sounds like he has worked on his technique to get more speed and it seems to have been successful. He was low 130s I think, now seems to be high 130s and even more dangerous.

@Rapido said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

His batting is a bonus so far , looks organized, but his run output so far is based on aerial pulls, hooks, and slogs off spinners.

Definitely a bonus. His SR is 71 so at least he must be picking the correct balls to have slog at, not just wildly swinging (he's also played some classy shots too). We were looking to up the run rate in a couple of those innings as well so a few big hits were justified.

Weather going to be complete lottery today it seems. Showers, thunderstorms, hail. Usually those events are localised so might miss the ground if we are lucky.

I mean he is a test pup. 4 tests all at home. He has a core job he is still raw at and I presume needs to devote most of his practice and prep time to and his physical energy to during games.

First time I saw Jamieson he was only mid 120s, he was only mid 120s 2 years ago. Nothing should distract from the work going into his bowling which is on an incredible trajectory.

Jamieson's batting is tighter and better version of Tim Southee. SO far all he has shown has either been counter attacking aggresion or cherry on top aggression. He is not a 7, I doubt he will ever be a 7. Only way I could see hime being a 7 is a succesful unit is if we also had 8s and 9s of similarish output to lengthn the batting. Currently, if Jamieson goes 7 then Spouthee goes 8, so yeah ...

I can't actually remember if the post I was replying to was suggesting a Jamieson to 7 type situation or just generally shitting on Santner.

No doubt Santner is currently the weakest spot in the 11. Fairly good weakest link in my mind though. Provides a balance that allows a 4 prong seam attack.

Was pondering this watching Santnet before lunch thinking he's not really an all rounder as he's at 70-80% at both roles. He's not a batsman who bowls, nor a bowler who bats.

We need a new term for those NZ part-bat, part-bowl types.

I'm thinking "part rounder".

What is Jeff Crowe, Trevor Franklin. Nonesmen? Partsmen?

Hes an allrounder. Equalish at both, not quite test standard.

If I'm going to put a positive on it he's a typically shite NZ spinner who can at least bat.

booboo

I don't see that any of the above posts refute my point.

SynicBast

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewarded

Chris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy

Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .

SynicBast

@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

I don't see that any of the above posts refute my point.

I was suggesting that using Cunis as the collective noun would be good as per Arlott

MN5

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewarded

Chris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy

Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .

Any others ?

We're hardly alone though, England had loads of "next Bothams" like Geoff Miller, Derek Pringle, Dermot Reeve, Chris Lewis etc.

SynicBast

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewarded

Chris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy

Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .

Any others ?

We're hardly alone though, England had loads of "next Bothams" like Geoff Miller, Derek Pringle, Dermot Reeve, Chris Lewis etc.

We have and still have 1/6th of the player base of the poms - but I also think that the pitches that we plkayed on in the 60s through 90s in domestic cricket overly rewarded mediocre bowlers who just had to land the ball on a reasonable length and the pitch would do all the work and make up for lack of actual skill. Plus the way the points system worked in the Shell Cup/Plunket Shield - dirty sloggers could get a reputation

booboo

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewarded

Chris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy

Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .

Any others ?

We're hardly alone though, England had loads of "next Bothams" like Geoff Miller, Derek Pringle, Dermot Reeve, Chris Lewis etc.

Off the top of my head:
Oram (but he was maybe 90% at both).
CDGH
Coriander Son

Rapido

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewarded

Chris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy

Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .

I was actually recently looking at a statsguru list of NZ bowlers with a post 1990 cut off date. Was surprised at how respectable Dipak's stats were actually. Post 1990, so all were tests when he was selected as specialist spinner. From 1991/92.

His average was 39 point something.

I should make clear, I think sub 40 is good for NZ spinner.

(I think about 32 to 33 average should be ceiling for NZ seamers, to be considered 'good')

SynicBast

@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewarded

Chris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy

Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .

Any others ?

We're hardly alone though, England had loads of "next Bothams" like Geoff Miller, Derek Pringle, Dermot Reeve, Chris Lewis etc.

Off the top of my head:
Oram (but he was maybe 90% at both).
CDGH
Coriander Son

CDGH performs at test level - he's actually a solid medium pacer who does actually make some runs relatively frequently - and he gets wickets which Santnav hardly ever does

MN5

@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewarded

Chris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy

Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .

Any others ?

We're hardly alone though, England had loads of "next Bothams" like Geoff Miller, Derek Pringle, Dermot Reeve, Chris Lewis etc.

Off the top of my head:
Oram (but he was maybe 90% at both).
CDGH
Coriander Son

Those guys are all considerably better than the ones I listed.

Definitely add James Franklin and Ian Butler.

Doug Bracewell purely cos his bowling turned to shit and stuff constantly referred to him as an "all rounder" despite never getting a 50 in 27 test matches.

SynicBast

@Rapido said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewarded

Chris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy

Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .

I was actually recently looking at a statsguru list of NZ bowlers with a post 1990 cut off date. Was surprised at how respectable Dipak's stats were actually. Post 1990, so all were tests when he was selected as specialist spinner. From 1991/92.

His average was 39 point something.

I should make clear, I think sub 40 is good for NZ spinner.

(I think about 32 to 33 average should be ceiling for NZ seamers, to be considered 'good')

Specialist spinner rather than bits and pieces default Number 6/7 or in those days, someone who could bat 3 after the revolving door openers had succumbed

MN5

@Rapido said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewarded

Chris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy

Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .

I was actually recently looking at a statsguru list of NZ bowlers with a post 1990 cut off date. Was surprised at how respectable Dipak's stats were actually. Post 1990, so all were tests when he was selected as specialist spinner. From 1991/92.

His average was 39 point something.

I should make clear, I think sub 40 is good for NZ spinner.

(I think about 32 to 33 average should be ceiling for NZ seamers, to be considered 'good')

I'm a harder marker. I'd have 35 and 30 respectively.

Rapido

@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewarded

Chris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy

Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .

Any others ?

We're hardly alone though, England had loads of "next Bothams" like Geoff Miller, Derek Pringle, Dermot Reeve, Chris Lewis etc.

Off the top of my head:
Oram (but he was maybe 90% at both).
CDGH
Coriander Son

They don't belong in that list.

CdG and Oram are good test allrounders.

Anderson probably would have been, body permitting.

KiwiMurph

So are there no prospects around the First Class scene that could replace Santner?

SynicBast

@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

So are there no prospects around the First Class scene that could replace Santner?

Ajaz Patel is a far better spinner but just has no gametime this season. Santnav is about as penetrative as a spitball against good batsmen or even tailenders who know how to hold a bat. TBH, given the exigencies I'd have played Ajaz just to get him some match fitness anyway. He still offers better bowling at 50% than santnav would on a career day

MN5

@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

So are there no prospects around the First Class scene that could replace Santner?

I think we need to be realistic. We currently have the GOAT NZ Batsman, a very good opener and two very good upper middle order batsmen. Our keeper/batsman is arguably our best ever and our pace quartet is our best ever as a unit. ( early days for Jamieson notwithstanding )

Something has to give and spin bowling quality is that something. I just wish the NZ selectors would stop their shoehorning.

Rapido

@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

So are there no prospects around the First Class scene that could replace Santner?

He's not the first choice spinner. So, obviously Ajaz.

I'm not sure if he's second choice spinner according to selectors (IMO Sommerville, but hes 36), or if he is selected as allrounder only.

There is McConchie. Who is a batting (spinner ) allrounder. He could, might be more solid with bat, but still just 75% of a bowler.

Eventually, getting sooner after the 'A' games. Ravindra as a batsman who can provide spin.

SynicBast

@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:

So are there no prospects around the First Class scene that could replace Santner?

I think we need to be realistic. We currently have the GOAT NZ Batsman, a very good opener and two very good upper middle order batsmen. Our keeper/batsman is arguably our best ever and our pace quartet is our best ever as a unit. ( early days for Jamieson notwithstanding )

Something has to give and spin bowling quality is that something. I just wish the NZ selectors would stop their shoehorning.

We have 2/3rds of the GOAT trio in Roscoe and Kane. An Opener who could end up being our best ever and allowing for eras is up there with the likes of Sutcliffe and GMT, bowling wise, yeah the current unit is the best I have seen collectively. It'
s balanced and has variety in terms of pace, bounce and movement

The Silver Fern

Black Caps v Pakistan