Black Caps v Pakistan
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@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewardedChris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy
Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .Any others ?
We're hardly alone though, England had loads of "next Bothams" like Geoff Miller, Derek Pringle, Dermot Reeve, Chris Lewis etc.
Off the top of my head:
Oram (but he was maybe 90% at both).
CDGH
Coriander Son@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewardedChris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy
Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .Any others ?
We're hardly alone though, England had loads of "next Bothams" like Geoff Miller, Derek Pringle, Dermot Reeve, Chris Lewis etc.
Off the top of my head:
Oram (but he was maybe 90% at both).
CDGH
Coriander SonCDGH performs at test level - he's actually a solid medium pacer who does actually make some runs relatively frequently - and he gets wickets which Santnav hardly ever does
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@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewardedChris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy
Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .Any others ?
We're hardly alone though, England had loads of "next Bothams" like Geoff Miller, Derek Pringle, Dermot Reeve, Chris Lewis etc.
Off the top of my head:
Oram (but he was maybe 90% at both).
CDGH
Coriander Son@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewardedChris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy
Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .Any others ?
We're hardly alone though, England had loads of "next Bothams" like Geoff Miller, Derek Pringle, Dermot Reeve, Chris Lewis etc.
Off the top of my head:
Oram (but he was maybe 90% at both).
CDGH
Coriander SonThose guys are all considerably better than the ones I listed.
Definitely add James Franklin and Ian Butler.
Doug Bracewell purely cos his bowling turned to shit and stuff constantly referred to him as an "all rounder" despite never getting a 50 in 27 test matches.
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@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewardedChris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy
Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .I was actually recently looking at a statsguru list of NZ bowlers with a post 1990 cut off date. Was surprised at how respectable Dipak's stats were actually. Post 1990, so all were tests when he was selected as specialist spinner. From 1991/92.
His average was 39 point something.
I should make clear, I think sub 40 is good for NZ spinner.
(I think about 32 to 33 average should be ceiling for NZ seamers, to be considered 'good')
@Rapido said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewardedChris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy
Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .I was actually recently looking at a statsguru list of NZ bowlers with a post 1990 cut off date. Was surprised at how respectable Dipak's stats were actually. Post 1990, so all were tests when he was selected as specialist spinner. From 1991/92.
His average was 39 point something.
I should make clear, I think sub 40 is good for NZ spinner.
(I think about 32 to 33 average should be ceiling for NZ seamers, to be considered 'good')
Specialist spinner rather than bits and pieces default Number 6/7 or in those days, someone who could bat 3 after the revolving door openers had succumbed
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@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewardedChris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy
Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .I was actually recently looking at a statsguru list of NZ bowlers with a post 1990 cut off date. Was surprised at how respectable Dipak's stats were actually. Post 1990, so all were tests when he was selected as specialist spinner. From 1991/92.
His average was 39 point something.
I should make clear, I think sub 40 is good for NZ spinner.
(I think about 32 to 33 average should be ceiling for NZ seamers, to be considered 'good')
@Rapido said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewardedChris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy
Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .I was actually recently looking at a statsguru list of NZ bowlers with a post 1990 cut off date. Was surprised at how respectable Dipak's stats were actually. Post 1990, so all were tests when he was selected as specialist spinner. From 1991/92.
His average was 39 point something.
I should make clear, I think sub 40 is good for NZ spinner.
(I think about 32 to 33 average should be ceiling for NZ seamers, to be considered 'good')
I'm a harder marker. I'd have 35 and 30 respectively.
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@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewardedChris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy
Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .Any others ?
We're hardly alone though, England had loads of "next Bothams" like Geoff Miller, Derek Pringle, Dermot Reeve, Chris Lewis etc.
Off the top of my head:
Oram (but he was maybe 90% at both).
CDGH
Coriander Son@booboo said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@booboo
Cunis - Larsen - Santnav - the lineage is pure - Mediocrity rewardedChris Harris ( test version ), Dipak Patel, Justin Vaughan, Shane Thomson....there's a long legacy
Harris flattered only to deceive time and time again, so yeah good call
Six-pak got into NZ cricket team purely by means of being the Journeyman Worcestershire batsman at the other end when GMT got his 100th FC century (basically picked by association when everyone loved all things Turner)
Justin Vaughan was a disaster twice over - both as a player and administrator - he rolled over for the opposition as a player almost as much as he did for the ECB and BCCI
Shane Thomason had more talent in his little finger than all of them, but lacked the mental discipline to apply himself - also was part of the early bratty black cap brigade .Any others ?
We're hardly alone though, England had loads of "next Bothams" like Geoff Miller, Derek Pringle, Dermot Reeve, Chris Lewis etc.
Off the top of my head:
Oram (but he was maybe 90% at both).
CDGH
Coriander SonThey don't belong in that list.
CdG and Oram are good test allrounders.
Anderson probably would have been, body permitting.
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@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
So are there no prospects around the First Class scene that could replace Santner?
Ajaz Patel is a far better spinner but just has no gametime this season. Santnav is about as penetrative as a spitball against good batsmen or even tailenders who know how to hold a bat. TBH, given the exigencies I'd have played Ajaz just to get him some match fitness anyway. He still offers better bowling at 50% than santnav would on a career day
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@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
So are there no prospects around the First Class scene that could replace Santner?
I think we need to be realistic. We currently have the GOAT NZ Batsman, a very good opener and two very good upper middle order batsmen. Our keeper/batsman is arguably our best ever and our pace quartet is our best ever as a unit. ( early days for Jamieson notwithstanding )
Something has to give and spin bowling quality is that something. I just wish the NZ selectors would stop their shoehorning.
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@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
So are there no prospects around the First Class scene that could replace Santner?
He's not the first choice spinner. So, obviously Ajaz.
I'm not sure if he's second choice spinner according to selectors (IMO Sommerville, but hes 36), or if he is selected as allrounder only.
There is McConchie. Who is a batting (spinner ) allrounder. He could, might be more solid with bat, but still just 75% of a bowler.
Eventually, getting sooner after the 'A' games. Ravindra as a batsman who can provide spin.
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@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
So are there no prospects around the First Class scene that could replace Santner?
I think we need to be realistic. We currently have the GOAT NZ Batsman, a very good opener and two very good upper middle order batsmen. Our keeper/batsman is arguably our best ever and our pace quartet is our best ever as a unit. ( early days for Jamieson notwithstanding )
Something has to give and spin bowling quality is that something. I just wish the NZ selectors would stop their shoehorning.
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
So are there no prospects around the First Class scene that could replace Santner?
I think we need to be realistic. We currently have the GOAT NZ Batsman, a very good opener and two very good upper middle order batsmen. Our keeper/batsman is arguably our best ever and our pace quartet is our best ever as a unit. ( early days for Jamieson notwithstanding )
Something has to give and spin bowling quality is that something. I just wish the NZ selectors would stop their shoehorning.
We have 2/3rds of the GOAT trio in Roscoe and Kane. An Opener who could end up being our best ever and allowing for eras is up there with the likes of Sutcliffe and GMT, bowling wise, yeah the current unit is the best I have seen collectively. It'
s balanced and has variety in terms of pace, bounce and movement -
@KiwiMurph said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
So are there no prospects around the First Class scene that could replace Santner?
I think we need to be realistic. We currently have the GOAT NZ Batsman, a very good opener and two very good upper middle order batsmen. Our keeper/batsman is arguably our best ever and our pace quartet is our best ever as a unit. ( early days for Jamieson notwithstanding )
Something has to give and spin bowling quality is that something. I just wish the NZ selectors would stop their shoehorning.
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I think we need to be realistic. We currently have the GOAT NZ Batsman, a very good opener and two very good upper middle order batsmen. Our keeper/batsman is arguably our best ever and our pace quartet is our best ever as a unit. ( early days for Jamieson notwithstanding )
While I'm celebrating being able to watch this curent team, I'm not looking foward to 2 years time when we could have lost Kane, Roscoe, BJ, Boult, Southeee and Wags - it'd be like the post 2015 RWC ABs, but more impacting in terms of missing talent/skills
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@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I think we need to be realistic. We currently have the GOAT NZ Batsman, a very good opener and two very good upper middle order batsmen. Our keeper/batsman is arguably our best ever and our pace quartet is our best ever as a unit. ( early days for Jamieson notwithstanding )
While I'm celebrating being able to watch this curent team, I'm not looking foward to 2 years time when we could have lost Kane, Roscoe, BJ, Boult, Southeee and Wags - it'd be like the post 2015 RWC ABs, but more impacting in terms of missing talent/skills
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
I think we need to be realistic. We currently have the GOAT NZ Batsman, a very good opener and two very good upper middle order batsmen. Our keeper/batsman is arguably our best ever and our pace quartet is our best ever as a unit. ( early days for Jamieson notwithstanding )
While I'm celebrating being able to watch this curent team, I'm not looking foward to 2 years time when we could have lost Kane, Roscoe, BJ, Boult, Southeee and Wags - it'd be like the post 2015 RWC ABs, but more impacting in terms of missing talent/skills
After Hadlee went ( which unfortunately coincided with me getting into cricket ) the team suffered for years. Also some of the openers we had were atrocious. The two Blairs got test appearances when across the ditch Matthew Hayden couldn't get a game cos Taylor and Slats were in the way. Fuck me the early 90's was a bad time.
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Peronally I'd like to see us start selecting spinners on their bowling and totally eliminate their batting as anything other than a tie breaking criterion between two equally sjkilled bowlers
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
Peronally I'd like to see us start selecting spinners on their bowling and totally eliminate their batting as anything other than a tie breaking criterion between two equally sjkilled bowlers
We normally do, though. Santner 's time in the team is the only time that NZ have had their spinner as the allrounder in my time, and not the best spinner in the country. Well, Harris got a couple of goes as second spinner, actually.
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@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
Peronally I'd like to see us start selecting spinners on their bowling and totally eliminate their batting as anything other than a tie breaking criterion between two equally sjkilled bowlers
We normally do, though. Santner 's time in the team is the only time that NZ have had their spinner as the allrounder in my time, and not the best spinner in the country. Well, Harris got a couple of goes as second spinner, actually.
@Rapido said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
Peronally I'd like to see us start selecting spinners on their bowling and totally eliminate their batting as anything other than a tie breaking criterion between two equally sjkilled bowlers
We normally do, though. Santner 's time in the team is the only time that NZ have had their spinner as the allrounder in my time, and not the best spinner in the country. Well, Harris got a couple of goes as second spinner, actually.
Daniel Vettori just got triggered reading this
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One of the problems that developped in the test team is that I don't think either Kane or McCullum had enough faith in any of the spinners to bowl them enough TBH. In McCullum's case, I don't believe he rated any spinner anyway so whoever got selected was on a hiding to nothing. This was exacerabted by the selection of the likes of santner and craig who arre basically seen - as vettori-lites. And let's be honest here, when was the last time Vettori ran through a test side - if my memory serves me well, it was before his batting became essential to make up for an extremely deficient top order
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One of the problems that developped in the test team is that I don't think either Kane or McCullum had enough faith in any of the spinners to bowl them enough TBH. In McCullum's case, I don't believe he rated any spinner anyway so whoever got selected was on a hiding to nothing. This was exacerabted by the selection of the likes of santner and craig who arre basically seen - as vettori-lites. And let's be honest here, when was the last time Vettori ran through a test side - if my memory serves me well, it was before his batting became essential to make up for an extremely deficient top order
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
One of the problems that developped in the test team is that I don't think either Kane or McCullum had enough faith in any of the spinners to bowl them enough TBH. In McCullum's case, I don't believe he rated any spinner anyway so whoever got selected was on a hiding to nothing. This was exacerabted by the selection of the likes of santner and craig who arre basically seen - as vettori-lites. And let's be honest here, when was the last time Vettori ran through a test side - if my memory serves me well, it was before his batting became essential to make up for an extremely deficient top order
cricinfo confirms you could be right. Looks like he got about a wicket a test in his last few matches which is not good enough.
As you mention his gutsy batting and captaincy made him an absolute champion player ( and this was needed with our diabolical top order ) but it's fair to say the bowling fell away in a big way.
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@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
One of the problems that developped in the test team is that I don't think either Kane or McCullum had enough faith in any of the spinners to bowl them enough TBH. In McCullum's case, I don't believe he rated any spinner anyway so whoever got selected was on a hiding to nothing. This was exacerabted by the selection of the likes of santner and craig who arre basically seen - as vettori-lites. And let's be honest here, when was the last time Vettori ran through a test side - if my memory serves me well, it was before his batting became essential to make up for an extremely deficient top order
cricinfo confirms you could be right. Looks like he got about a wicket a test in his last few matches which is not good enough.
As you mention his gutsy batting and captaincy made him an absolute champion player ( and this was needed with our diabolical top order ) but it's fair to say the bowling fell away in a big way.
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
cricinfo confirms you could be right. Looks like he got about a wicket a test in his last few matches which is not good enough.
As you mention his gutsy batting and captaincy made him an absolute champion player ( and this was needed with our diabolical top order ) but it's fair to say the bowling fell away in a big way.
Mind you he had to basically mollycoddle some of the most injury-prone attacks we had - and he was never a big turner - it was the fact he was a left arm orthodox spinner who was very accurate for long periods over 17 years that got him that haul of wickets - he was a much more game-changing bowler when the batsmen were under pressures of time and pacing ie limited over games.
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@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
cricinfo confirms you could be right. Looks like he got about a wicket a test in his last few matches which is not good enough.
As you mention his gutsy batting and captaincy made him an absolute champion player ( and this was needed with our diabolical top order ) but it's fair to say the bowling fell away in a big way.
Mind you he had to basically mollycoddle some of the most injury-prone attacks we had - and he was never a big turner - it was the fact he was a left arm orthodox spinner who was very accurate for long periods over 17 years that got him that haul of wickets - he was a much more game-changing bowler when the batsmen were under pressures of time and pacing ie limited over games.
@SynicBast said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
@MN5 said in Black Caps v Pakistan:
cricinfo confirms you could be right. Looks like he got about a wicket a test in his last few matches which is not good enough.
As you mention his gutsy batting and captaincy made him an absolute champion player ( and this was needed with our diabolical top order ) but it's fair to say the bowling fell away in a big way.
Mind you he had to basically mollycoddle some of the most injury-prone attacks we had - and he was never a big turner - it was the fact he was a left arm orthodox spinner who was very accurate for long periods over 17 years that got him that haul of wickets - he was a much more game-changing bowler when the batsmen were under pressures of time and pacing ie limited over games.
You've summed him up pretty accurately. When you put it that way he sounds limited which maybe he was but he was still considerably better than any who've come since. A genuine NZ great for sure.....and someone we haven't come close to replacing.
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Jamieson continues to impress. I will be very interested to see who he manages bowling on this deck - will he be able to get enough bounce to make things difficult - although it was gratifying to see that he is getting up in pace with each test he plays - started around the 127-133kmh mark, now he tends top start around 135-6 kmh and can sustain it for longer
