Worst All Black RWC exits

DMX

Re 2019 semi, for all the talk about mental toughness or selections if you tell me that Read, Whitelock and Rettallick were all going to have poor games I think I will tell you its really unlikely that the ABs could ever win. Don't think I could fault Hansen for choosing any of them. I still think he was right with the Mounga/ Barrett combo despite how hysterical some people were after the game. The only chance to recall Ben Smith to the starting line up was the SA game, but the young wingers came through again so it was next to impossible after that. I would have had him on the bench but watching Jordie's goal kicking this year I can see what he was thinking. Also I see what he was thinking choosing S. Barrett but in a way he lost a confidence in what was initially an unconventional decision to play Ardie at 6/8 with Cane.

pakman

@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.

Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges

In Times [EDIT] today WB said the TMO spotted it real time, but wasn’t allowed to inform onfield team.

ACT Crusader

@pakman said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.

Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges

In ToryGraph today WB said the TMO spotted it real time, but wasn’t allowed to inform onfield team.

It’s taken him 14 years to confirm that?

canefan

@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@pakman said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.

Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges

In ToryGraph today WB said the TMO spotted it real time, but wasn’t allowed to inform onfield team.

It’s taken him 14 years to confirm that?

That is a slow moving bus he's thrown his TMO under....

pakman

@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@pakman said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.

Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges

In ToryGraph today WB said the TMO spotted it real time, but wasn’t allowed to inform onfield team.

It’s taken him 14 years to confirm that?

We wus robbed!

ACT Crusader

@pakman said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@pakman said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.

Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges

In ToryGraph today WB said the TMO spotted it real time, but wasn’t allowed to inform onfield team.

It’s taken him 14 years to confirm that?

We wus robbed!

Plenty more years for that rugby chip to be on our collective shoulders.

Bob Deans scored by the way.

Victor Meldrew

@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@pakman said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@act-crusader said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@pakman said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@mariner4life said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@Snowy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@sdrggyy Wayne Barnes ruined my faith in rugby that day I was fuming sitting in the stands. I also believe that he was there to make sure that we lost. An entire game of rugby and one side only gets penalised twice? France of all teams too? Beggars belief. I think that I have been to two internationals since and not one world cup match because of it.

Barnes was badly let down by his touch judges

In ToryGraph today WB said the TMO spotted it real time, but wasn’t allowed to inform onfield team.

It’s taken him 14 years to confirm that?

We wus robbed!

Plenty more years for that rugby chip to be on our collective shoulders.

Bob Deans scored by the way.

I was at the 2007 game, but at the risk of repeating myself, I found the 2019 exit worse.

We were never really in the 2007 game after the 1st half - in 2019 we seemed to bugger up opportunity after opportunity to win the game

antipodean

I'm a little more concerned that All Black teams no longer continually show ruthlessness. The ability to keep a foot on their throat and grind them into a dark place mentally. Giving up points late in the game when the result isn't in doubt, and through very poor discipline suggests to me that the hard lessons of the 2007 exit are lost on this group.

gt12

@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

I'm a little more concerned that All Black teams no longer continually show ruthlessness. The ability to keep a foot on their throat and grind them into a dark place mentally. Giving up points late in the game when the result isn't in doubt, and through very poor discipline suggests to me that the hard lessons of the 2007 exit are lost on this group.

Blame the NZRFU and the public for that. There are none left who were there in 2007, and this group was immediately forgiven for the fuck-up of 2019 - the official response was to appoint one of the losing coaches to the top job, and the general public at large didn't seem to give a shit about the loss or that appointment. If no-one seems to care from those two groups, I'm not sure why we think the players should learn anything.

canefan

@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

I'm a little more concerned that All Black teams no longer continually show ruthlessness. The ability to keep a foot on their throat and grind them into a dark place mentally. Giving up points late in the game when the result isn't in doubt, and through very poor discipline suggests to me that the hard lessons of the 2007 exit are lost on this group.

Blame the NZRFU and the public for that. There are none left who were there in 2007, and this group was immediately forgiven for the fuck-up of 2019 - the official response was to appoint one of the losing coaches to the top job, and the general public at large didn't seem to give a shit about the loss or that appointment. If no-one seems to care from those two groups, I'm not sure why we think the players should learn anything.

Foster's hire should have been commensurate with us winning in Japan. Why did we want to stay the course after how things played out? Lazy by the NZRFU

Godder

@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

I'm a little more concerned that All Black teams no longer continually show ruthlessness. The ability to keep a foot on their throat and grind them into a dark place mentally. Giving up points late in the game when the result isn't in doubt, and through very poor discipline suggests to me that the hard lessons of the 2007 exit are lost on this group.

Blame the NZRFU and the public for that. There are none left who were there in 2007, and this group was immediately forgiven for the fuck-up of 2019 - the official response was to appoint one of the losing coaches to the top job, and the general public at large didn't seem to give a shit about the loss or that appointment. If no-one seems to care from those two groups, I'm not sure why we think the players should learn anything.

Foster's hire should have been commensurate with us winning in Japan. Why did we want to stay the course after how things played out? Lazy by the NZRFU

Isn't that at odds with one of the other lessons of 2007? Retaining a losing head coach paid off handsomely in 2011 and 2015.

canefan

@godder said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

I'm a little more concerned that All Black teams no longer continually show ruthlessness. The ability to keep a foot on their throat and grind them into a dark place mentally. Giving up points late in the game when the result isn't in doubt, and through very poor discipline suggests to me that the hard lessons of the 2007 exit are lost on this group.

Blame the NZRFU and the public for that. There are none left who were there in 2007, and this group was immediately forgiven for the fuck-up of 2019 - the official response was to appoint one of the losing coaches to the top job, and the general public at large didn't seem to give a shit about the loss or that appointment. If no-one seems to care from those two groups, I'm not sure why we think the players should learn anything.

Foster's hire should have been commensurate with us winning in Japan. Why did we want to stay the course after how things played out? Lazy by the NZRFU

Isn't that at odds with one of the other lessons of 2007? Retaining a losing head coach paid off handsomely in 2011 and 2015.

At the risk of harnessing the benefit of hindsight, I think the situations were different. In 2007 we had a young core that ended up being the foundation of 2011 and 2015. And it is hard to compare GH, Wayne Smith and Hansen (all coaches with previous test nation experience) and Fozzie's coaching team.

Godder

@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@godder said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

I'm a little more concerned that All Black teams no longer continually show ruthlessness. The ability to keep a foot on their throat and grind them into a dark place mentally. Giving up points late in the game when the result isn't in doubt, and through very poor discipline suggests to me that the hard lessons of the 2007 exit are lost on this group.

Blame the NZRFU and the public for that. There are none left who were there in 2007, and this group was immediately forgiven for the fuck-up of 2019 - the official response was to appoint one of the losing coaches to the top job, and the general public at large didn't seem to give a shit about the loss or that appointment. If no-one seems to care from those two groups, I'm not sure why we think the players should learn anything.

Foster's hire should have been commensurate with us winning in Japan. Why did we want to stay the course after how things played out? Lazy by the NZRFU

Isn't that at odds with one of the other lessons of 2007? Retaining a losing head coach paid off handsomely in 2011 and 2015.

At the risk of harnessing the benefit of hindsight, I think the situations were different. In 2007 we had a young core that ended up being the foundation of 2011 and 2015. And it is hard to compare GH, Wayne Smith and Hansen (all coaches with previous test nation experience) and Fozzie's coaching team.

Agree they aren't identical situations by any means, but of the lessons was don't be hasty, so perhaps they have overapplied that lesson (agree that Fozzy isn't of the calibre of the previous brains trust).

canefan

@godder said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@godder said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@gt12 said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@antipodean said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

I'm a little more concerned that All Black teams no longer continually show ruthlessness. The ability to keep a foot on their throat and grind them into a dark place mentally. Giving up points late in the game when the result isn't in doubt, and through very poor discipline suggests to me that the hard lessons of the 2007 exit are lost on this group.

Blame the NZRFU and the public for that. There are none left who were there in 2007, and this group was immediately forgiven for the fuck-up of 2019 - the official response was to appoint one of the losing coaches to the top job, and the general public at large didn't seem to give a shit about the loss or that appointment. If no-one seems to care from those two groups, I'm not sure why we think the players should learn anything.

Foster's hire should have been commensurate with us winning in Japan. Why did we want to stay the course after how things played out? Lazy by the NZRFU

Isn't that at odds with one of the other lessons of 2007? Retaining a losing head coach paid off handsomely in 2011 and 2015.

At the risk of harnessing the benefit of hindsight, I think the situations were different. In 2007 we had a young core that ended up being the foundation of 2011 and 2015. And it is hard to compare GH, Wayne Smith and Hansen (all coaches with previous test nation experience) and Fozzie's coaching team.

Agree they aren't identical situations by any means, but of the lessons was don't be hasty, so perhaps they have overapplied that lesson (agree that Fozzy isn't of the calibre of the previous brains trust).

The way it ended in 2019, and the outside perception of Fozzie's role in Hansen's group, and based in no small part to his Chiefs tenure, he has work to do to win over many people, lots of ferners included. We can't get rid of him ourselves, so he has time and opportunity to win hearts and minds by his actions

No Quarter

I think reappointing Henry was really just an acknowledgement from the NZRFU that we got absolutely fucking screwed in that quarter final.

nzzp

@no-quarter said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

I think reappointing Henry was really just an acknowledgement from the NZRFU that we got absolutely fucking screwed in that quarter final.

... And the remarkable body of work he'd put together. The contrast with Foster is massive

nostrildamus

@dmx said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@sdrggyy said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

2019 we lost solely because of own our fault - no external factors involved.

I think England were an external factor, honestly don't think there was much between ABs, Boks and England, on any given day any of the three teams could have won imho. England caught us flat, Boks caught England flat.

I don't know, they really had our number. No doubt Hansen and co would have had a better answer if we were allowed a rematch but good coaching should have an answer by the second half and we didn't.

nostrildamus

@nzzp Foster must present really well or be great mates with the selection panel. I can't think of any other reason.

canefan

@nostrildamus said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

@nzzp Foster must ~~present really well or~~ be great mates with the selection panel. I can't think of any other reason.

FIFY

rotated

@pakman said in Worst All Black RWC exits:

In Times [EDIT] today WB said the TMO spotted it real time, but wasn’t allowed to inform onfield team.

In 2007 I was the referee of the World Cup quarter-final between France and New Zealand. Between myself and the officials I was in charge of, we missed the forward pass from Damien Traille to Frédéric Michalak for the match-winning try. Chris White, the television match official, knew that the ball had gone forward but he couldn’t intervene. At that time, you could only turn to the TMO for the grounding of the ball. That meant Chris had to sit there, inert, and accept the decision. But New Zealand were knocked out, and the forward pass is central to many people’s memories of that match.

As a referee and as a rugby fan, that’s the last thing I want.

There is something so passive and obtuse the way he always talks about that game that shits me to tears.

I still don't understand how he managed to be 25-30 metres away from the forward pass on first phase ball off an attacking scrum.

It was really the combination of three mistakes from Barnesy that sunk that game.

The lack of a penalty in the last 60 minutes despite 60%+ possession.
The McAllister yellow card (could the TMO have intervened on that farce I wonder?)
The forward pass.

We likely could have survived two of those, but all three plus the injuries to Carter and then Evans was insurmountable.

The Silver Fern

Worst All Black RWC exits