Worst All Black RWC exits
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The thing with RWCs is that with the exception of 87 there is one hairy game the eventual winner has to get through.
Basically in 95 and 07 ABs weren't able to get through that game.
In 91 it was Aus vs Ireland
In 95 it was both the final and the semi final for the Boks
in 99 it was the semi final for Aus
in 03 it was the final for England
in 07 it was the QF vs Fiji for Boks.
11 it was the final
15 it was the semi final ABs v Boks
19 it was the semi final Wales v Boks -
@nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Mine go a bit like this:
Most angry as results due to selection/coach stupidity: 2019, 2003.
Most gutted: 1995.
Most gutted in person: 1999. (Actually, with the backline selections this can go in first as well.)
Angry but we got a bit screwed so was easier to take: 2007.
Remarkably similar to mine.
1995 was the closest the ABs will likely ever come to having a Cinderella run. Fourth favourites going into the tournament and then Lomu and Mehrts play their second tests in the opener and it's off to the races.
1999 was a shock but I still thought it was a coin flip against Australia or South Africa if they made the final so I didn't really feel like we blew a certain RWC there (although Lomu firing up in England game, and then early in the semi did make one feel that we had turned a corner).
2003 was a shock. I was at the 50 point drubbing earlier that year in Sydney and wasn't privvy to a lot of the unrest in the camp. Absolute shock that one. But in hindsight understandable.
2007 I basically put in the same basket as the 2019 CWC Final. It wasn't to be... there was plenty to fault and nothing to fault at the same time.
2019 like many here I saw coming from a mile off after they didn't seem to learn any lessons after Chicago/Lions Tour/Twickenham/Dublin. That wasn't a side capable of winning three big tests in a row.
The issues in 1995 could have been solved with a better chef.
The issues in 2003 and 2007 could have been solved during the tournament.
The issues in 1991, 1999 and 2019 were probably too far gone before the tournament started.@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Mine go a bit like this:
Most angry as results due to selection/coach stupidity: 2019, 2003.
Most gutted: 1995.
Most gutted in person: 1999. (Actually, with the backline selections this can go in first as well.)
Angry but we got a bit screwed so was easier to take: 2007.
Remarkably similar to mine.
1995 was the closest the ABs will likely ever come to having a Cinderella run. Fourth favourites going into the tournament and then Lomu and Mehrts play their second tests in the opener and it's off to the races.
Fifth by my reckoning, and the preview mag I bought but since lost ...
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The thing with RWCs is that with the exception of 87 there is one hairy game the eventual winner has to get through.
Basically in 95 and 07 ABs weren't able to get through that game.
In 91 it was Aus vs Ireland
In 95 it was both the final and the semi final for the Boks
in 99 it was the semi final for Aus
in 03 it was the final for England
in 07 it was the QF vs Fiji for Boks.
11 it was the final
15 it was the semi final ABs v Boks
19 it was the semi final Wales v Boks@kiwimurph said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
The thing with RWCs is that with the exception of 87 there is one hairy game the eventual winner has to get through.
Basically in 95 and 07 ABs weren't able to get through that game.
In 91 it was Aus vs Ireland
In 95 it was both the final and the semi final for the Boks
in 99 it was the semi final for Aus
in 03 it was the final for England
in 07 it was the QF vs Fiji for Boks.
11 it was the final
15 it was the semi final ABs v Boks
19 it was the semi final Wales v BoksNot to mention Samoa and Wales ...
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@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Mine go a bit like this:
Most angry as results due to selection/coach stupidity: 2019, 2003.
Most gutted: 1995.
Most gutted in person: 1999. (Actually, with the backline selections this can go in first as well.)
Angry but we got a bit screwed so was easier to take: 2007.
Remarkably similar to mine.
1995 was the closest the ABs will likely ever come to having a Cinderella run. Fourth favourites going into the tournament and then Lomu and Mehrts play their second tests in the opener and it's off to the races.
Fifth by my reckoning, and the preview mag I bought but since lost ...
@booboo said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Mine go a bit like this:
Most angry as results due to selection/coach stupidity: 2019, 2003.
Most gutted: 1995.
Most gutted in person: 1999. (Actually, with the backline selections this can go in first as well.)
Angry but we got a bit screwed so was easier to take: 2007.
Remarkably similar to mine.
1995 was the closest the ABs will likely ever come to having a Cinderella run. Fourth favourites going into the tournament and then Lomu and Mehrts play their second tests in the opener and it's off to the races.
Fifth by my reckoning, and the preview mag I bought but since lost ...
I will stick too that story and can't see a compelling reason we would have been rated above Australia, France, England or the Boks (at home) going into it.
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@booboo said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nepia said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Mine go a bit like this:
Most angry as results due to selection/coach stupidity: 2019, 2003.
Most gutted: 1995.
Most gutted in person: 1999. (Actually, with the backline selections this can go in first as well.)
Angry but we got a bit screwed so was easier to take: 2007.
Remarkably similar to mine.
1995 was the closest the ABs will likely ever come to having a Cinderella run. Fourth favourites going into the tournament and then Lomu and Mehrts play their second tests in the opener and it's off to the races.
Fifth by my reckoning, and the preview mag I bought but since lost ...
I will stick too that story and can't see a compelling reason we would have been rated above Australia, France, England or the Boks (at home) going into it.
@rotated Other than that we 'd beaten the Boks in SA in 92 and in NZ in 94,beaten the Lions in 93, had a record against Oz of 2-1-2 since the 91 RWC having drawn the last match in Sydney , had lost narrowly to England away with an under strength team and should have drawn the series against France in 04 but for the "try from the ends of the earth"
95 was probably the most even comp (pre the tournament) there's ever been. I still rated OZ the #1 because they'd given us the hardest matches and were reigning champs, SA at home were going to be a threat but I still fancied us. I didn't rate the Poms at all (the year didn't end in a 3). France were France and should have been in the final.
The reality was Lomu came good, Bachop came back and the debutants, Mehrts, Kronfeld and Osborne were the missing components that made for an outstanding team.
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@kiwimurph said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
On the flip side though I found the adulation of Hansen a bit too much post RWC Semi final loss - the 3rd/4th match was like a farewell tour and there was next to no criticism of him/ABs after a stuttering last few years.
He wanted to go in 2017, and I was stoked at the time that he stayed on. In hindsight, it would have been a good break - a dodgily drawn Lions series ravaged by injuries ... but at least not a loss. RWC was a bridge too far, and I think a lot of the people (team and coaches) got stale.
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@kiwimurph said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
On the flip side though I found the adulation of Hansen a bit too much post RWC Semi final loss - the 3rd/4th match was like a farewell tour and there was next to no criticism of him/ABs after a stuttering last few years.
He wanted to go in 2017, and I was stoked at the time that he stayed on. In hindsight, it would have been a good break - a dodgily drawn Lions series ravaged by injuries ... but at least not a loss. RWC was a bridge too far, and I think a lot of the people (team and coaches) got stale.
You could have had Foster as head coach 2 years earlier?
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@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@kiwimurph said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
On the flip side though I found the adulation of Hansen a bit too much post RWC Semi final loss - the 3rd/4th match was like a farewell tour and there was next to no criticism of him/ABs after a stuttering last few years.
He wanted to go in 2017, and I was stoked at the time that he stayed on. In hindsight, it would have been a good break - a dodgily drawn Lions series ravaged by injuries ... but at least not a loss. RWC was a bridge too far, and I think a lot of the people (team and coaches) got stale.
You could have had Foster as head coach 2 years earlier?
@nostrildamus said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@kiwimurph said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
On the flip side though I found the adulation of Hansen a bit too much post RWC Semi final loss - the 3rd/4th match was like a farewell tour and there was next to no criticism of him/ABs after a stuttering last few years.
He wanted to go in 2017, and I was stoked at the time that he stayed on. In hindsight, it would have been a good break - a dodgily drawn Lions series ravaged by injuries ... but at least not a loss. RWC was a bridge too far, and I think a lot of the people (team and coaches) got stale.
You could have had Foster as head coach 2 years earlier?
we'd still have lost the world cup, and now we'd have a combo of Rennie, Joseph, Brown, Robertson. As opposed to Foster, McLeod, Plumtree, Feek.
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@nostrildamus said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@kiwimurph said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
On the flip side though I found the adulation of Hansen a bit too much post RWC Semi final loss - the 3rd/4th match was like a farewell tour and there was next to no criticism of him/ABs after a stuttering last few years.
He wanted to go in 2017, and I was stoked at the time that he stayed on. In hindsight, it would have been a good break - a dodgily drawn Lions series ravaged by injuries ... but at least not a loss. RWC was a bridge too far, and I think a lot of the people (team and coaches) got stale.
You could have had Foster as head coach 2 years earlier?
we'd still have lost the world cup, and now we'd have a combo of Rennie, Joseph, Brown, Robertson. As opposed to Foster, McLeod, Plumtree, Feek.
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nostrildamus said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@kiwimurph said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
On the flip side though I found the adulation of Hansen a bit too much post RWC Semi final loss - the 3rd/4th match was like a farewell tour and there was next to no criticism of him/ABs after a stuttering last few years.
He wanted to go in 2017, and I was stoked at the time that he stayed on. In hindsight, it would have been a good break - a dodgily drawn Lions series ravaged by injuries ... but at least not a loss. RWC was a bridge too far, and I think a lot of the people (team and coaches) got stale.
You could have had Foster as head coach 2 years earlier?
we'd still have lost the world cup, and now we'd have a combo of Rennie, Joseph, Brown, Robertson. As opposed to Foster, McLeod, Plumtree, Feek.
good point!
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@dogmeat said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated Other than that we 'd beaten the Boks in SA in 92 and in NZ in 94,beaten the Lions in 93, had a record against Oz of 2-1-2 since the 91 RWC having drawn the last match in Sydney , had lost narrowly to England away with an under strength team and should have drawn the series against France in 04 but for the "try from the ends of the earth"
95 was probably the most even comp (pre the tournament) there's ever been. I still rated OZ the #1 because they'd given us the hardest matches and were reigning champs, SA at home were going to be a threat but I still fancied us. I didn't rate the Poms at all (the year didn't end in a 3). France were France and should have been in the final.
The reality was Lomu came good, Bachop came back and the debutants, Mehrts, Kronfeld and Osborne were the missing components that made for an outstanding team.
We'd lost our last test matches (or drawn in SA case) against every one of the other 1995 favourites. 1994 was the 3rd worst year in NZ rugby history up to that point (probably still is). (Edit: No, 1998 bumps it down to 4th worse)
NZ were a shambles who started to get it right about 1 month before the tournament.
I agree it was an even comp, though. But only the more anorak of NZ fans could have felt an inkling of something good in about April 1995. For most fans and media, it was more revisionist.
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@dogmeat said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated Other than that we 'd beaten the Boks in SA in 92 and in NZ in 94,beaten the Lions in 93, had a record against Oz of 2-1-2 since the 91 RWC having drawn the last match in Sydney , had lost narrowly to England away with an under strength team and should have drawn the series against France in 04 but for the "try from the ends of the earth"
95 was probably the most even comp (pre the tournament) there's ever been. I still rated OZ the #1 because they'd given us the hardest matches and were reigning champs, SA at home were going to be a threat but I still fancied us. I didn't rate the Poms at all (the year didn't end in a 3). France were France and should have been in the final.
The reality was Lomu came good, Bachop came back and the debutants, Mehrts, Kronfeld and Osborne were the missing components that made for an outstanding team.
We'd lost our last test matches (or drawn in SA case) against every one of the other 1995 favourites. 1994 was the 3rd worst year in NZ rugby history up to that point (probably still is). (Edit: No, 1998 bumps it down to 4th worse)
NZ were a shambles who started to get it right about 1 month before the tournament.
I agree it was an even comp, though. But only the more anorak of NZ fans could have felt an inkling of something good in about April 1995. For most fans and media, it was more revisionist.
@rapido said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@dogmeat said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated Other than that we 'd beaten the Boks in SA in 92 and in NZ in 94,beaten the Lions in 93, had a record against Oz of 2-1-2 since the 91 RWC having drawn the last match in Sydney , had lost narrowly to England away with an under strength team and should have drawn the series against France in 04 but for the "try from the ends of the earth"
95 was probably the most even comp (pre the tournament) there's ever been. I still rated OZ the #1 because they'd given us the hardest matches and were reigning champs, SA at home were going to be a threat but I still fancied us. I didn't rate the Poms at all (the year didn't end in a 3). France were France and should have been in the final.
The reality was Lomu came good, Bachop came back and the debutants, Mehrts, Kronfeld and Osborne were the missing components that made for an outstanding team.
We'd lost our last test matches (or drawn in SA case) against every one of the other 1995 favourites. 1994 was the 3rd worst year in NZ rugby history up to that point (probably still is). (Edit: No, 1998 bumps it down to 4th worse)
NZ were a shambles who started to get it right about 1 month before the tournament.
I agree it was an even comp, though. But only the more anorak of NZ fans could have felt an inkling of something good in about April 1995. For most fans and media, it was more revisionist.
That's interesting. I read somewhere that the All Blacks were favourites going into every single RWC except for 1987. This was in the build up to 2011, so at that point it would have meant that the only one you'd won was the only one you weren't expected to win. Sounds like that might have been bollocks.
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@rapido said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@dogmeat said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated Other than that we 'd beaten the Boks in SA in 92 and in NZ in 94,beaten the Lions in 93, had a record against Oz of 2-1-2 since the 91 RWC having drawn the last match in Sydney , had lost narrowly to England away with an under strength team and should have drawn the series against France in 04 but for the "try from the ends of the earth"
95 was probably the most even comp (pre the tournament) there's ever been. I still rated OZ the #1 because they'd given us the hardest matches and were reigning champs, SA at home were going to be a threat but I still fancied us. I didn't rate the Poms at all (the year didn't end in a 3). France were France and should have been in the final.
The reality was Lomu came good, Bachop came back and the debutants, Mehrts, Kronfeld and Osborne were the missing components that made for an outstanding team.
We'd lost our last test matches (or drawn in SA case) against every one of the other 1995 favourites. 1994 was the 3rd worst year in NZ rugby history up to that point (probably still is). (Edit: No, 1998 bumps it down to 4th worse)
NZ were a shambles who started to get it right about 1 month before the tournament.
I agree it was an even comp, though. But only the more anorak of NZ fans could have felt an inkling of something good in about April 1995. For most fans and media, it was more revisionist.
That's interesting. I read somewhere that the All Blacks were favourites going into every single RWC except for 1987. This was in the build up to 2011, so at that point it would have meant that the only one you'd won was the only one you weren't expected to win. Sounds like that might have been bollocks.
@gibbonrib said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rapido said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@dogmeat said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated Other than that we 'd beaten the Boks in SA in 92 and in NZ in 94,beaten the Lions in 93, had a record against Oz of 2-1-2 since the 91 RWC having drawn the last match in Sydney , had lost narrowly to England away with an under strength team and should have drawn the series against France in 04 but for the "try from the ends of the earth"
95 was probably the most even comp (pre the tournament) there's ever been. I still rated OZ the #1 because they'd given us the hardest matches and were reigning champs, SA at home were going to be a threat but I still fancied us. I didn't rate the Poms at all (the year didn't end in a 3). France were France and should have been in the final.
The reality was Lomu came good, Bachop came back and the debutants, Mehrts, Kronfeld and Osborne were the missing components that made for an outstanding team.
We'd lost our last test matches (or drawn in SA case) against every one of the other 1995 favourites. 1994 was the 3rd worst year in NZ rugby history up to that point (probably still is). (Edit: No, 1998 bumps it down to 4th worse)
NZ were a shambles who started to get it right about 1 month before the tournament.
I agree it was an even comp, though. But only the more anorak of NZ fans could have felt an inkling of something good in about April 1995. For most fans and media, it was more revisionist.
That's interesting. I read somewhere that the All Blacks were favourites going into every single RWC except for 1987. This was in the build up to 2011, so at that point it would have meant that the only one you'd won was the only one you weren't expected to win. Sounds like that might have been bollocks.
1995 is the most egrarious. But several other tournaments it is also probably contentious.
For actual proper betting favourites. NZ didn't have legal betting until 1996. So, it depends on how favouritism is measured. Only UK and Northern Territory (Centrebet) would have had any sort of betting market on rugby for the first 3 tournament.
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- Yes, NZ were probably favourites but the smart money would have been on the fast rising Australians who convincingly beat NZ in lead up. But NZ had been great from 87 to 90, so aura was legit. From an NZ POV - Concern - but (false) hope was there that they had a big one in them when needed.
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- Probably had eeked into favouritism again. After the horrors of 1998. Very similar to 1995, except this time with RWC in November rather than May the team had enough time to display to fans and media that they were 'back'. Probably favourites, but suffered worst defeat in history (to eventual champs) in the last match before the tournament. This is still NZ's worse defeat 22 years later.
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- Similar to pattern of 95 and 99. Had been crap but found form in RWC year and handed out record thrashings. I don't know official markets. But my gauge is NZ fans had it about equal favouritism with England who were the benchmark. Could the new found dynamism match England's experience. Theory/hope that hard grounds and heat of Australia in November may tip it NZ's way. I'd be surprised if foreign fans, media , markets had NZ favoutites in 2003 though? Maybe those 50 pointers in the Tri nations did do it?
Really, just shows how bad rugby punditry is, or was. 3 rebuilt, young and fragile teams. 2 being given actual favouritism or 1 assigned retrospective favouritism.
However. In summary:
1991 yes.
2007, 2011, 2015, 2019 - definite.
(2019 with the reek of creaking 1991 however - as discussed/predicted on this site from about a year out. But, runs on the board and all that ...) -
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If I'd known in 1995 what I knew in 2010, 1995 would have been a much bigger heartbreak. We were basically unbackable favourites to win and stumbled at the final hurdle
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@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If I'd known in 1995 what I knew in 2010, 1995 would have been a much bigger heartbreak. We were basically unbackable favourites to win and stumbled at the final hurdle
by the time of the final, unbackable.
@rapido said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@canefan said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
If I'd known in 1995 what I knew in 2010, 1995 would have been a much bigger heartbreak. We were basically unbackable favourites to win and stumbled at the final hurdle
by the time of the final, unbackable.
Yes. After what we did to England, it seemed all but assured. Of course we didn't account for Suzie and her poisoned tea urn....
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In the dying stage of extra time in 1995. With the knowledge that we would win on red card countback if it was drawn, I started to hope we wouldn't get one of those dropkicks. For the sake of the credibility of the sport.
Oh how I scoffed at the 1995 version of myself by about 2010.
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In the dying stage of extra time in 1995. With the knowledge that we would win on red card countback if it was drawn, I started to hope we wouldn't get one of those dropkicks. For the sake of the credibility of the sport.
Oh how I scoffed at the 1995 version of myself by about 2010.
@rapido said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
In the dying stage of extra time in 1995. With the knowledge that we would win on red card countback if it was drawn, I started to hope we wouldn't get one of those dropkicks. For the sake of the credibility of the sport.
Oh how I scoffed at the 1995 version of myself by about 2010.
At the time I was pretty disappointed, but I guess there was feeling that it had only been 8 years since our first triumph, and we'd win it again pretty quickly. Of course little did we know....
... it would be a little longer than 4 more years
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Not an AB exit, but a memory from the 1999 WC that some of you might appreciate:
I was living in London at the time, so I went to watch the NZ-Scotland quarter-final with my Kiwi girlfriend and a couple of her Kiwi mates in a Scottish pub (can't remember the name, somewhere near St Pancras I think). Very rowdy but good natured Scottish crowd as you'd expect, we were the only non-Scots there as far I could see.
TV was in the corner of the room, up high. There was one bloke sitting at the front on his own, drinking his pint and watching the build up. Quiet guy, tall and skinny. Just as the Haka is about to start, he gets up and walks over to corner and stands under the TV, turns to face the entire pub, takes off his shirt and lets out a huge roar. Proceeds to do the full Ka Mate, fully synchronised with the ABs on TV above him.
The whole pub goes nuts, cracking atmosphere all game, and the lone Kiwi isn't allowed to buy another drink for the rest of the night.
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@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Tactically keeping possession playing for the try/penalty was the right call IMO
100% this. The thing that was such an aberration was the way that Rugby was being reffed at the time led to a bit of a penalty fest... almost always for the team in possession. It's simplistic to point at a forward pass as the key moment, and so the media and plenty of the public do that. But the real scandal there was the ref swallowing the whistle.
The good news is that I think these days that game gets reffed differently - and there's no way the forward pass stands
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@rotated said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
Tactically keeping possession playing for the try/penalty was the right call IMO
100% this. The thing that was such an aberration was the way that Rugby was being reffed at the time led to a bit of a penalty fest... almost always for the team in possession. It's simplistic to point at a forward pass as the key moment, and so the media and plenty of the public do that. But the real scandal there was the ref swallowing the whistle.
The good news is that I think these days that game gets reffed differently - and there's no way the forward pass stands
I partly agree, but some of the selections were questionable when it came to a tight RWC knockout match. The bench that had Leonard, Masoe, Toeava - all were a bit deer in the headlights. Why not select Howlett? He had tasted RWC defeat so would’ve been brimming. Why not bring on fresh legs in the front row and play Tialata? I would’ve started Jack, but that’s just me!
And why not go with McAllister and Conrad (a combo used earlier in the cup), start Mils at fullback and then have Rangi off the bench (where he had provided great impact before)?
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@kiwimurph said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
On the flip side though I found the adulation of Hansen a bit too much post RWC Semi final loss - the 3rd/4th match was like a farewell tour and there was next to no criticism of him/ABs after a stuttering last few years.
He wanted to go in 2017, and I was stoked at the time that he stayed on. In hindsight, it would have been a good break - a dodgily drawn Lions series ravaged by injuries ... but at least not a loss. RWC was a bridge too far, and I think a lot of the people (team and coaches) got stale.
@nzzp said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
@kiwimurph said in Worst All Black RWC exits:
On the flip side though I found the adulation of Hansen a bit too much post RWC Semi final loss - the 3rd/4th match was like a farewell tour and there was next to no criticism of him/ABs after a stuttering last few years.
He wanted to go in 2017, and I was stoked at the time that he stayed on. In hindsight, it would have been a good break - a dodgily drawn Lions series ravaged by injuries ... but at least not a loss. RWC was a bridge too far, and I think a lot of the people (team and coaches) got stale.
Agreed that in hindsight, Shag should have gone then. We would still have bombed out of the RWC 2019 in the semis (or maybe even earlier), but at least Fozzie's time would have been done and dusted and we'd have a different (and hopefully more competent coach) now
