AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass
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@bovidae said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@winger said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Wasn't Ken Gray mainly a loosehead?
He played both but more as a TH. Anyone who saw him play rates Gray as one of the best ever AB props, so not surprised at his selection.
They named the loose forwards last night.
6 M Jones
7 McCaw
8 Brooke24 tests isn’t very many even for that era. He must be good to get in the team ahead of more recent guys like Brown, Hayman and Frank’s
@mn5 i was thinking much the same thing but defer to those that actually knew anything about him
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@bovidae said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@winger said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Wasn't Ken Gray mainly a loosehead?
He played both but more as a TH. Anyone who saw him play rates Gray as one of the best ever AB props, so not surprised at his selection.
They named the loose forwards last night.
6 M Jones
7 McCaw
8 Brooke24 tests isn’t very many even for that era. He must be good to get in the team ahead of more recent guys like Brown, Hayman and Frank’s
@mn5 said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
24 tests isn’t very many even for that era. He must be good to get in the team ahead of more recent guys like Brown, Hayman and Frank’s
Here is his bio. Gray was 25 when he made his AB debut, much older than his contemporaries.
http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/profile.asp?ABID=337
Also, there tends to be a recency bias with these polls.
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@bovidae said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@winger said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Wasn't Ken Gray mainly a loosehead?
He played both but more as a TH. Anyone who saw him play rates Gray as one of the best ever AB props, so not surprised at his selection.
They named the loose forwards last night.
6 M Jones
7 McCaw
8 Brooke24 tests isn’t very many even for that era. He must be good to get in the team ahead of more recent guys like Brown, Hayman and Frank’s
@mn5 said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@bovidae said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@winger said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Wasn't Ken Gray mainly a loosehead?
He played both but more as a TH. Anyone who saw him play rates Gray as one of the best ever AB props, so not surprised at his selection.
They named the loose forwards last night.
6 M Jones
7 McCaw
8 Brooke24 tests isn’t very many even for that era. He must be good to get in the team ahead of more recent guys like Brown, Hayman and Frank’s
That 24 tests over 7 years would be easily over 50 these days, if the 1970 tour was somewhere different than SA he likely would have had more too. He only missed 4 tests from his debut, and for injury not selection, until his retirement.
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Ken Gray was an absolute beast. I saw him play once but many times on TV. Unlike Meads he would still be competitive today. I would have him ahead of Olo at TH. I actually think Woody is more contentious.
I also think the panel of 'experts' bottled it putting Jones at 6. Kirkpatrick is your six. Make a call and decide which of McCaw and Jones misses out - don't try and have it both ways.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Brooke/Read
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Ken Gray was an absolute beast. I saw him play once but many times on TV. Unlike Meads he would still be competitive today. I would have him ahead of Olo at TH. I actually think Woody is more contentious.
I also think the panel of 'experts' bottled it putting Jones at 6. Kirkpatrick is your six. Make a call and decide which of McCaw and Jones misses out - don't try and have it both ways.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Brooke/Read
@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Ken Gray was an absolute beast. I saw him play once but many times on TV. Unlike Meads he would still be competitive today. I would have him ahead of Olo at TH. I actually think Woody is more contentious.
I also think the panel of 'experts' bottled it putting Jones at 6. Kirkpatrick is your six. Make a call and decide which of McCaw and Jones misses out - don't try and have it both ways.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Brooke/Read
Maybe they couldn’t decide between Kirky and Tremain?
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Ken Gray was an absolute beast. I saw him play once but many times on TV. Unlike Meads he would still be competitive today. I would have him ahead of Olo at TH. I actually think Woody is more contentious.
I also think the panel of 'experts' bottled it putting Jones at 6. Kirkpatrick is your six. Make a call and decide which of McCaw and Jones misses out - don't try and have it both ways.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Brooke/Read
@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
I also think the panel of 'experts' bottled it putting Jones at 6. Kirkpatrick is your six.
IIRC the fan vote had MJ just edging out Kaino so Kirkpatrick was a distant 3rd, which goes back to my comment about recency bias and the demographic who voted.
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Ken Gray was an absolute beast. I saw him play once but many times on TV. Unlike Meads he would still be competitive today. I would have him ahead of Olo at TH. I actually think Woody is more contentious.
I also think the panel of 'experts' bottled it putting Jones at 6. Kirkpatrick is your six. Make a call and decide which of McCaw and Jones misses out - don't try and have it both ways.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Brooke/Read
@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Ken Gray was an absolute beast. I saw him play once but many times on TV. Unlike Meads he would still be competitive today. I would have him ahead of Olo at TH. I actually think Woody is more contentious.
I also think the panel of 'experts' bottled it putting Jones at 6. Kirkpatrick is your six. Make a call and decide which of McCaw and Jones misses out - don't try and have it both ways.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Brooke/Read
Come on DM, make a call on your number 8
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@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Ken Gray was an absolute beast. I saw him play once but many times on TV. Unlike Meads he would still be competitive today. I would have him ahead of Olo at TH. I actually think Woody is more contentious.
I also think the panel of 'experts' bottled it putting Jones at 6. Kirkpatrick is your six. Make a call and decide which of McCaw and Jones misses out - don't try and have it both ways.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Brooke/Read
Come on DM, make a call on your number 8
@act-crusader said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Ken Gray was an absolute beast. I saw him play once but many times on TV. Unlike Meads he would still be competitive today. I would have him ahead of Olo at TH. I actually think Woody is more contentious.
I also think the panel of 'experts' bottled it putting Jones at 6. Kirkpatrick is your six. Make a call and decide which of McCaw and Jones misses out - don't try and have it both ways.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Brooke/Read
Come on DM, make a call on your number 8
Ardie!
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@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Ken Gray was an absolute beast. I saw him play once but many times on TV. Unlike Meads he would still be competitive today. I would have him ahead of Olo at TH. I actually think Woody is more contentious.
I also think the panel of 'experts' bottled it putting Jones at 6. Kirkpatrick is your six. Make a call and decide which of McCaw and Jones misses out - don't try and have it both ways.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Brooke/Read
Come on DM, make a call on your number 8
@act-crusader I wondered who would call me on the hypocrisy.
My own bias wants me to pick BJ Lochore but I admit he doesn't deserve to be there. I never thought that I would see a more gifted 8 than Zinnie but at times I think Read outshone him, plus he was a genuine lineout option so there you go. Zinny's golden years probably lasted a bit longer but if I had to pick I'd start with Read and put Zinny on the bench.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Read.
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Ken Gray was an absolute beast. I saw him play once but many times on TV. Unlike Meads he would still be competitive today. I would have him ahead of Olo at TH. I actually think Woody is more contentious.
I also think the panel of 'experts' bottled it putting Jones at 6. Kirkpatrick is your six. Make a call and decide which of McCaw and Jones misses out - don't try and have it both ways.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Brooke/Read
@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Ken Gray was an absolute beast. I saw him play once but many times on TV. Unlike Meads he would still be competitive today. I would have him ahead of Olo at TH. I actually think Woody is more contentious.
I also think the panel of 'experts' bottled it putting Jones at 6. Kirkpatrick is your six. Make a call and decide which of McCaw and Jones misses out - don't try and have it both ways.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Brooke/Read
He doesn’t exactly look a typical props build though does he ?
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@act-crusader I wondered who would call me on the hypocrisy.
My own bias wants me to pick BJ Lochore but I admit he doesn't deserve to be there. I never thought that I would see a more gifted 8 than Zinnie but at times I think Read outshone him, plus he was a genuine lineout option so there you go. Zinny's golden years probably lasted a bit longer but if I had to pick I'd start with Read and put Zinny on the bench.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Read.
@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@act-crusader I wondered who would call me on the hypocrisy.
My own bias wants me to pick BJ Lochore but I admit he doesn't deserve to be there. I never thought that I would see a more gifted 8 than Zinnie but at times I think Read outshone him, plus he was a genuine lineout option so there you go. Zinny's golden years probably lasted a bit longer but if I had to pick I'd start with Read and put Zinny on the bench.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Read.
Kaino, Jones, Zinny (if that taxi accident caused a brain injury that turned him into anti vaxx, anti lockdown, Covid doesn't exist loon.) If he's just a loon then Buck, I always liked them both.
Never saw Kirky play but expect if I had I would have also seen Tremain and there'd be no way a Hawkes Bay boy could not pick the Magpie in a close competition.
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@act-crusader I wondered who would call me on the hypocrisy.
My own bias wants me to pick BJ Lochore but I admit he doesn't deserve to be there. I never thought that I would see a more gifted 8 than Zinnie but at times I think Read outshone him, plus he was a genuine lineout option so there you go. Zinny's golden years probably lasted a bit longer but if I had to pick I'd start with Read and put Zinny on the bench.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Read.
@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@act-crusader I wondered who would call me on the hypocrisy.
My own bias wants me to pick BJ Lochore but I admit he doesn't deserve to be there. I never thought that I would see a more gifted 8 than Zinnie but at times I think Read outshone him, plus he was a genuine lineout option so there you go. Zinny's golden years probably lasted a bit longer but if I had to pick I'd start with Read and put Zinny on the bench.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Read.
I’m in the Jones, McCaw, Zinny camp with Read off the bench.
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@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@act-crusader I wondered who would call me on the hypocrisy.
My own bias wants me to pick BJ Lochore but I admit he doesn't deserve to be there. I never thought that I would see a more gifted 8 than Zinnie but at times I think Read outshone him, plus he was a genuine lineout option so there you go. Zinny's golden years probably lasted a bit longer but if I had to pick I'd start with Read and put Zinny on the bench.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Read.
Kaino, Jones, Zinny (if that taxi accident caused a brain injury that turned him into anti vaxx, anti lockdown, Covid doesn't exist loon.) If he's just a loon then Buck, I always liked them both.
Never saw Kirky play but expect if I had I would have also seen Tremain and there'd be no way a Hawkes Bay boy could not pick the Magpie in a close competition.
@nepia said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@act-crusader I wondered who would call me on the hypocrisy.
My own bias wants me to pick BJ Lochore but I admit he doesn't deserve to be there. I never thought that I would see a more gifted 8 than Zinnie but at times I think Read outshone him, plus he was a genuine lineout option so there you go. Zinny's golden years probably lasted a bit longer but if I had to pick I'd start with Read and put Zinny on the bench.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Read.
Kaino, Jones, Zinny (if that taxi accident caused a brain injury that turned him into anti vaxx, anti lockdown, Covid doesn't exist loon.) If he's just a loon then Buck, I always liked them both.
Never saw Kirky play but expect if I had I would have also seen Tremain and there'd be no way a Hawkes Bay boy could not pick the Magpie in a close competition.
So Zac Guildford should be a shoe in ahead of Jonah at 11 then.
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@nepia said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@act-crusader I wondered who would call me on the hypocrisy.
My own bias wants me to pick BJ Lochore but I admit he doesn't deserve to be there. I never thought that I would see a more gifted 8 than Zinnie but at times I think Read outshone him, plus he was a genuine lineout option so there you go. Zinny's golden years probably lasted a bit longer but if I had to pick I'd start with Read and put Zinny on the bench.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Read.
Kaino, Jones, Zinny (if that taxi accident caused a brain injury that turned him into anti vaxx, anti lockdown, Covid doesn't exist loon.) If he's just a loon then Buck, I always liked them both.
Never saw Kirky play but expect if I had I would have also seen Tremain and there'd be no way a Hawkes Bay boy could not pick the Magpie in a close competition.
So Zac Guildford should be a shoe in ahead of Jonah at 11 then.
@mn5 said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@nepia said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@act-crusader I wondered who would call me on the hypocrisy.
My own bias wants me to pick BJ Lochore but I admit he doesn't deserve to be there. I never thought that I would see a more gifted 8 than Zinnie but at times I think Read outshone him, plus he was a genuine lineout option so there you go. Zinny's golden years probably lasted a bit longer but if I had to pick I'd start with Read and put Zinny on the bench.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Read.
Kaino, Jones, Zinny (if that taxi accident caused a brain injury that turned him into anti vaxx, anti lockdown, Covid doesn't exist loon.) If he's just a loon then Buck, I always liked them both.
Never saw Kirky play but expect if I had I would have also seen Tremain and there'd be no way a Hawkes Bay boy could not pick the Magpie in a close competition.
So Zac Guildford should be a shoe in ahead of Jonah at 11 then.
To be fair to Zac, he did score tries against the Boks and could turn quicker than the QE2
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@act-crusader I wondered who would call me on the hypocrisy.
My own bias wants me to pick BJ Lochore but I admit he doesn't deserve to be there. I never thought that I would see a more gifted 8 than Zinnie but at times I think Read outshone him, plus he was a genuine lineout option so there you go. Zinny's golden years probably lasted a bit longer but if I had to pick I'd start with Read and put Zinny on the bench.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Read.
@dogmeat said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
@act-crusader I wondered who would call me on the hypocrisy.
My own bias wants me to pick BJ Lochore but I admit he doesn't deserve to be there. I never thought that I would see a more gifted 8 than Zinnie but at times I think Read outshone him, plus he was a genuine lineout option so there you go. Zinny's golden years probably lasted a bit longer but if I had to pick I'd start with Read and put Zinny on the bench.
Kirkpatrick, Jones, Read.
Zinny for me. Did his core role so well, but brought those extras. 45 m droppie in a semi? No worries. Outrageous pass? No worries. Crunching defence... and his control at the back of the scrum was better than any modern era 8 (a skill we've lost)
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Always tough to compare players from different eras. I can only really compare players I've seen live which rules out anyone who played before 1983. Based on what I've seen. My All Black greatest forward pack would be.
- Tony Woodcock
- Sean Fitzpatrick
- Olo Brown
- Brodie Retallick
- Sam Whitelock
- Jerome Kaino
- Richie McCaw
- Buck Shelford
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Unsure if this is of interest. If not delete it.
I did some work for a long retired Ken Gray when young (18). He was a very strong man. He picked up a wooden post and took it up a hill with ease that a mate and I could hardly lift as a combined effort (one end each). Scary for me as I felt I was quite strong back then.
As part of Sky Sport’s quest to find New Zealand’s Greatest XV, a panel of leading journalists and broadcasters – Grant Nisbett, Ken Laban, Rikki Swannell and Phil Gifford – were last week asked by The Breakdown who they thought were the country’s best-ever locks.
All Blacks Greatest XV
- Tony Woodcock (118 tests from 2002-2015)
- Sean Fitzpatrick (92 tests from 1986-1997)
- Ken Gray (24 tests from 1963-1969)
- Colin Meads (55 tests from 1957-1971)
- Brodie Retallick (84 tests from 2012-present)
- Michael Jones (56 tests from 1986-1998)
- Richie McCaw (148 tests from 2001-2015)
- Zinzan Brooke (58 tests from 1987 to 1997). N/A
- Aaron Smith (101 tests from 2012-present)
- Dan Carter (112 tests from 2003-2015)
- N/A
- N/A
- N/A
- N/A
- N/A
Reserves:
- N/A
- N/A
- N/A
- N/A
- N/A
- N/A
- N/A
- N/A
Coach: N/A
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@winger said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Wasn't Ken Gray mainly a loosehead?
He played both but more as a TH. Anyone who saw him play rates Gray as one of the best ever AB props, so not surprised at his selection.
They named the loose forwards last night.
6 M Jones
7 McCaw
8 Brooke@bovidae said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
He played both but more as a TH. Anyone who saw him play rates Gray as one of the best ever AB props, so not surprised at his selection.
Before even my time, but from what I've read, he was also pretty unbeatable at the front of the lineouts that existed in those days
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Always tough to compare players from different eras. I can only really compare players I've seen live which rules out anyone who played before 1983. Based on what I've seen. My All Black greatest forward pack would be.
- Tony Woodcock
- Sean Fitzpatrick
- Olo Brown
- Brodie Retallick
- Sam Whitelock
- Jerome Kaino
- Richie McCaw
- Buck Shelford
@sparky said in AB Greatest 15 Rugby Pass:
Always tough to compare players from different eras. I can only really compare players I've seen live which rules out anyone who played before 1983. Based on what I've seen. My All Black greatest forward pack would be.
- Tony Woodcock
- Sean Fitzpatrick
- Olo Brown
- Brodie Retallick
- Sam Whitelock
- Jerome Kaino
- Richie McCaw
- Buck Shelford
- Aaron Smith
- Daniel Carter
