Hillsborough

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="576908" data-time="1462347163">
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I think prosecution for the actions on the day will be unlikely but the cover up? I bloody well hope so. It was disgraceful.
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I was pretty young when it happened but I remember the fans being blamed, watching that film made me pretty angry about the stories that had come out and how at the end they talked about some of the head cops getting promotions ffs after the inquest.

Crucial

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="antipodean" data-cid="576903" data-time="1462346780">Two statements completely and utterly at odds. But well done for your disgraceful victim blaming attack on innocent people.</blockquote>
Total rubbish. 
The context of the first quote was talking about a legal level of blame. The second about the actions of some fans contributing to the situation. 
Where have I blamed victims? 
We all agree how bad the police were during and after the event. At the time I was yelling at the TV incredulous at what was happening. 
Those charged with upholding safety failed. 
If I was in that situation outside a ground I would make a choice to back out of there because of the risk. That's my behavioral choice.

hydro11

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="576912" data-time="1462347804">
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Total rubbish. 
The context of the first quote was talking about a legal level of blame. The second about the actions of some fans contributing to the situation. 
Where have I blamed victims? 
We all agree how bad the police were during and after the event. At the time I was yelling at the TV incredulous at what was happening. 
Those charged with upholding safety failed. 
If I was in that situation outside a ground I would make a choice to back out of there because of the risk. That's my behavioral choice.
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I think the fans probably put reasonable faith in the authorities. I don't think anyone outside of the ground could have expected what transpired.

taniwharugby

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="hydro11" data-cid="576916" data-time="1462349450">
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I think the fans probably put reasonable faith in the authorities. I don't think anyone outside of the ground could have expected what transpired.
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I doubt the cops involved expected it would turn out that way either, however reckless/negligent thier actions were.

da_grubster

Crucial, no one knew what was going on outside the stadium. 
The negligence to open the gate was the main reason for the escalation of the problem. Fans were simply trying to get inside the stadium to watch a game of football. The only people who knew a dangerous crush was happening were the people being crushed 
Probably best to leave this alone mate!

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="jegga" data-cid="576906" data-time="1462347006">
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Is there any chance anyone in the police will actually be prosecuted ? Not just for their actions but the cover up that followed?
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Jeg the author, referred to above, mentioned time and culture were no excuses for the BBC paedophiles, so expect that precedence to be highlighted in the upcoming trials

TeWaio

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="576907" data-time="1462347064">
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Something not yet mentioned in any depth is the dreadful state of the stadia back in those days. for the most part the stadia had been built God knows how many years before and simply added to and re-furbed. No real investment into the infrastructure while all the time the use they were being put to was changing. Hillsborough was one of the FA's go to options for the FA Cup semi-finals. Why? Because it was big (capacity wise) and Sheffield Wednesday were unlikely to be in the frame. It was never chosen because it was fit for purpose.
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I went to a boxing day game at Goodison Park a few years ago with my gf's Dad, a die hard Evertonian. I don't like crowds / cramped spaces at the best of times, and that place freaked me out. I think it is the one of the oldest stadia in the UK. Seriously like a rabbit warren with loads of bottlenecks. You can see how things could go seriously wrong, and that's with ticketed seating. Terraces + poorly managed crowd inflows.....makes me shudder to think about it.

jegga

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="576921" data-time="1462351204">
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Jeg the author, referred to above, mentioned time and culture were no excuses for the BBC paedophiles, so expect that precedence to be highlighted in the upcoming trials
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Excellent.

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="576907" data-time="1462347064">
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Something not yet mentioned in any depth is the dreadful state of the stadia back in those days. for the most part the stadia had been built God knows how many years before and simply added to and re-furbed. No real investment into the infrastructure while all the time the use they were being put to was changing. Hillsborough was one of the FA's go to options for the FA Cup semi-finals. Why? Because it was big (capacity wise) and Sheffield Wednesday were unlikely to be in the frame. It was never chosen because it was fit for purpose.
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true about stadia, civil evolution I guess
 
Was it 2 other FA Cup Semis held there in the preceding years without incident?
 
A major factor was removing the policeman Mole (his name) from the job he knew how to do explicitly - Senior Cops come out looking stink again

canefan

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="576924" data-time="1462351606">
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true about stadia, civil evolution I guess
 
Was it 2 other FA Cup Semis held there in the preceding years without incident?
 
A major factor was removing the policeman Mole (his name) from the job he knew how to do explicitly - Senior Cops come out looking stink again
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</blockquote>
I watched the ESPN doco again last night, they mentioned a near tragedy in the Spurs Wolves semi 1981(sic). You are right about the "stadium", it was built at the turn of the century (1900s) and was done up for the '66 WC. It reminded me of a really old decrepit version of Athletic park

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="576924" data-time="1462351606">
<div>
true about stadia, civil evolution I guess
 
Was it 2 other FA Cup Semis held there in the preceding years without incident?
 
A major factor was removing the policeman Mole (his name) from the job he knew how to do explicitly - Senior Cops come out looking stink again
</div>
</blockquote>
Yeah. As I said, it was one of the go-to stadia for the FA. Many times Hillsborough has been used without incident but... Over the years there have been a few examples of outdated stadia and disasters. Not always crowd related but a good indication of their fitness for purpose in the modern era. In 1985 there was the Heysel thing and also the Bradford City fire. Two different problems but the commonality was outdated infrastructure. In a similar vein the Ibrox disaster in 1971.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Siam" data-cid="576897" data-time="1462346072">
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Kelvin McKenzie would be proud of that explanation. The bad behaviour as them being there huh?
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To Kelvin became a verb in Fleet Street at the time. "Have you been on holiday"? "Yes, two weeks Kelvin"
 
Lying in the Sun.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="576936" data-time="1462353976">
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I watched the ESPN doco again last night, they mentioned a near tragedy in the Spurs Wolves semi 1981(sic). You are right about the "stadium", it was built at the turn of the century (1900s) and was done up for the '66 WC. It reminded me of a really old decrepit version of Athletic park
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Yeah the initial semi-final was played at Hillsborough and in near identical circumstances the same issues arose. The Spurs fans were segregated down at the Leppings Lane end of the ground (The smaller end and also where the Liverpool supporters were sent. In both instances they were by far the larger number of supporters). For the Spurs supporters, complete disaster was averted by the police opening the terraces and allowing the fans to spill out onto pitch-side. Ironic that the policing saved the day this time but 8 years later totally fucked things up.
 
Lessons learned.
 
Not.

Siam

Reminds me of something my commercial pilot trainer mate said when I asked the old "how safe is it to fly?" chestnut
 
"It gets safer every time a plane crashes, it's a safety manual painted with blood" - sad but poignant

canefan

I wonder if Duckenfield,the officer in charge, will get charged now?

antipodean

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Crucial" data-cid="576912" data-time="1462347804">Total rubbish. The context of the first quote was talking about a legal level of blame. The second about the actions of some fans contributing to the situation. Where have I blamed victims?</blockquote> It's quite simple. You said the 'fans were not to blame' and then apportioned blame by saying 'the fans contributed to what happened'. It's utterly wrong seeing as the fans have been completely exonerated. The FA are to blame for holding the match at an unsafe stadium, the police are at fault for their astonishing incompetence and subsequent cover-up and the ambulance service are to blame. Not the fans, not the victims.

Catogrande

I've taken the time to re-read the Grauniad article posted by Siam. It is undeniably a powerful piece and you can feel the outpouring of emotion throughout. The sense of a great injustice is undeniable too. But why did the journalist feel the need to put in that bit about the Freemasons?
 
Quote "But what of the freemasons, those pantomime villains of the piece? In March 2015 David Duckenfield admitted what most of us had long suspected â€“ he had been a freemason since the mid-70s. Remarkably, he was promoted to grand master of his lodge a year after Hillsborough.
While the masonsâ€ role in the cover-up remains unclear â€“ if indeed they had one..." end quote.
 
So, nothing to do with the 'masons then? Why bring it up?

TeWaio

Margaret Aspinall CBE is an amazing woman. To lead that group in fighting for 27 years, and never giving up despite all the injustice along the way is just incredible. So many institutions / systems stacked against them for so long. To have such tenacity, after having lost a child in the tragedy. Beggars belief.

Siam

I was puzzled by that too Cato. 
Perhaps a justification for the rise of Duckenfield and a further attack on the police hierarchy? Perhaps clinging to the thought that if Mole was on duty the senseless waste of lives, living and dead, would have been avoided, and it can be traced back to nepotistic promotions. 
I don't know. I guess after 27 years of evidence appraisal even the most threadbare trace of causality gets explored. 
I been thinking about the images and details in that article all day though. That lady that lost 2 daughters 
Poor buggers. I hope this stuff this week helps them. I'm sure it does in some ways.

Siam

Didn't see your post TeWaio. Hear Hear!!

The Silver Fern

Hillsborough