All Blacks vs Springboks I
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
looks a bit lightweight for centre
Huh, go figure. I don't see him as smaller than any of our other midfielders.
But if being too "lightweight" gets him back on the wing where he's a much more dangerous player, then I'll back it.
I'm happy to be proven wrong, and it's just based off a camera to the side, his neck didn't look as thick and robust as other midfielders (built up for collisions)...I didn't notice any weakness or frailty in tackling or running but I didn't see very much of him on camera...
Fuck it made me laugh finding this after getting curious on your observation - look at the size of his fucking neck!
I would've picked him as a similar size to Rieko.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@crucial guess he looked better than Donald did in the 2011 RWC Final...
One of the all-time great AB moments: AB's in a dog-fight, nerves starting to get the best of them and on comes The Duck, shirt several sizes too small, for a penalty and says to McCaw "just give me the fucking ball".
Calmest dude on the pitch.
Maybe he was still pissed?
@pakman said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@crucial guess he looked better than Donald did in the 2011 RWC Final...
One of the all-time great AB moments: AB's in a dog-fight, nerves starting to get the best of them and on comes The Duck, shirt several sizes too small, for a penalty and says to McCaw "just give me the fucking ball".
Calmest dude on the pitch.
Maybe he was still pissed?
Nah, he's a Waiuku man, if living there doesn't get to them I don't know what will.
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@bones that is the front! I swear he has gills and from the side it's a 1/3 the width! (Or maybe it was a stunt double). If I could be arsed I'd find the camera shot and send it to you...
@Bones
ok Braydon Ennor Neck time.
Of course the only quick photo I found was him and a streaker but you'll see he has a giraffe-like neck (or a tiny head) cantilevering his head forward in profile.. just makes it look like an easy target to smash. Big legs, good frame for a midfielder, but weirdly long neck, wide from front, narrow in profile.Anyway, he won't get injured again so I'll be glad to be proven wrong.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@nepia I maintain the biggest issue with playing SB at 6, was the fact we carried on with the game plan we'd have had if Cane was out there rather than using SBs stregnth, BBBR was woefuly out of form too...
Don't throw some shade on the Magpie while defending the Cantab Mr Taniwha.
SB could have at least won a lineout or two.
@nepia again, goes back to the plan we used that didn't utilise a strength of him being there, which wasn't really his fault
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
having watched teh last two Bok tests it would be an enormously stupid error to pick an inferior all-round player just to negate one part of what the opposition does, and not look to making more of what we do well.
I wouldn't have Bridge in the 23, he is unnecessary.
We have a team full of finishers. We want someone who can create the opportunities.
well put, i really do miss people like B & C smith (and obviously others), sure they finished a lot themselves but i most fondly remember them just making those breaks/half beaks that then had two or three other feed off and finish
Our current four wings are scoring tries at almost unprecedented rates.
Rieko 30/42
Even the much maligned George 12/15
Will 11/8
Sevu 10/13TOTAL 63 tries 78 tests 0.8 tries per test.
Doug Howlett got 49/62 at 0.79
Cully got 46/58 at 0.79
Goldie got 44/60 at 0.73
Big Jules got 46/64at 0.72
Joe Rok got 46/69 at 0.66
Jonah got 37/63 at 0.58
Bender got 39/84 at 0.46
Tana got 36/74 at 0.48@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
having watched teh last two Bok tests it would be an enormously stupid error to pick an inferior all-round player just to negate one part of what the opposition does, and not look to making more of what we do well.
I wouldn't have Bridge in the 23, he is unnecessary.
We have a team full of finishers. We want someone who can create the opportunities.
well put, i really do miss people like B & C smith (and obviously others), sure they finished a lot themselves but i most fondly remember them just making those breaks/half beaks that then had two or three other feed off and finish
Our current four wings are scoring tries at almost unprecedented rates.
Rieko 30/42
Even the much maligned George 12/15
Will 11/8
Sevu 10/13TOTAL 63 tries 78 tests 0.8 tries per test.
Doug Howlett got 49/62 at 0.79
Cully got 46/58 at 0.79
Goldie got 44/60 at 0.73
Big Jules got 46/64at 0.72
Joe Rok got 46/69 at 0.66
Jonah got 37/63 at 0.58
Bender got 39/84 at 0.46
Tana got 36/74 at 0.48Different eras ... you can prove anything with stats but ...
Some of those guys (Tana, Bender, Cullen, Goldie?) were not pure wingers or moved.
Plus you are comparing current AB's in early career vs "greats" at career-end (Savea, Sivivatu, Roks, Bender etc would have amazing stats at 10, 20, 30 tests, yeah?)
Plus DC and Merthens were certainly better goal-kickers than we have now. DC taking a 3 from 40m was a pretty sure option vs say BB?
Maybe tactically defenses are far better organized so now ... proportionally meaning the risk/reward of going wide with the right timing becomes the best (often only?) try scoring option vs 15-20 years ago when defenses were more porous across the field. Witness all the cross kicking now too which is exactly this.
You triggered me :face_with_tears_of_joy: :face_with_tears_of_joy:
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@dagrubster said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
Yes it has, this is par for the course for them when playing in Aus.
The game moves towards the springboks style of play in world cups.
Set piece focus, big defence, kicking comes more into importance and the game is slower as a result as teams play more risk free rugby the higher the stakes.
It’s why Japan can beat them and a few weeks later they nearly beat the best AB RWC side ever.
"Got close on the scoreboard"
Lead by 7(?) at halftime kinda close?
Admittedly, I was fuming as the ref was only reffing the ABs that day
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@daffy-jaffy said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
Francois de Klerk
Who's this Francois?
No Weise, have they thrown the book at him? (EDIT: NOPE FFS that was a total red)
No Cheslin, and Le Roux still there, good news
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@dice said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
having watched teh last two Bok tests it would be an enormously stupid error to pick an inferior all-round player just to negate one part of what the opposition does, and not look to making more of what we do well.
I wouldn't have Bridge in the 23, he is unnecessary.
We have a team full of finishers. We want someone who can create the opportunities.
well put, i really do miss people like B & C smith (and obviously others), sure they finished a lot themselves but i most fondly remember them just making those breaks/half beaks that then had two or three other feed off and finish
Our current four wings are scoring tries at almost unprecedented rates.
Rieko 30/42
Even the much maligned George 12/15
Will 11/8
Sevu 10/13TOTAL 63 tries 78 tests 0.8 tries per test.
Doug Howlett got 49/62 at 0.79
Cully got 46/58 at 0.79
Goldie got 44/60 at 0.73
Big Jules got 46/64at 0.72
Joe Rok got 46/69 at 0.66
Jonah got 37/63 at 0.58
Bender got 39/84 at 0.46
Tana got 36/74 at 0.48It's not that unusual for AB wingers to start their Test careers with a good try scoring rate. It's maintaining that strike rate after the first couple of years that seems to be quite tough.
These guys started out with fairly good try scoring rates.
Joe Rokocoko - 24 tries in first 16 tests
Julian Savea - 29 tries in first 25 tests
Tana Umaga - 22 tries in first 24 tests
Jonah Lomu - 14 tries in first 15 tests
Christian Cullen - 23 tries in first 23 Tests
Doug Howlett - 10 tries in first 11 Tests
Jeff Wilson - 20 tries in first 24 testsDo/Should we start automatically dropping wingers at 20 tests?
@kruse said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@dice said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
having watched teh last two Bok tests it would be an enormously stupid error to pick an inferior all-round player just to negate one part of what the opposition does, and not look to making more of what we do well.
I wouldn't have Bridge in the 23, he is unnecessary.
We have a team full of finishers. We want someone who can create the opportunities.
well put, i really do miss people like B & C smith (and obviously others), sure they finished a lot themselves but i most fondly remember them just making those breaks/half beaks that then had two or three other feed off and finish
Our current four wings are scoring tries at almost unprecedented rates.
Rieko 30/42
Even the much maligned George 12/15
Will 11/8
Sevu 10/13TOTAL 63 tries 78 tests 0.8 tries per test.
Doug Howlett got 49/62 at 0.79
Cully got 46/58 at 0.79
Goldie got 44/60 at 0.73
Big Jules got 46/64at 0.72
Joe Rok got 46/69 at 0.66
Jonah got 37/63 at 0.58
Bender got 39/84 at 0.46
Tana got 36/74 at 0.48It's not that unusual for AB wingers to start their Test careers with a good try scoring rate. It's maintaining that strike rate after the first couple of years that seems to be quite tough.
These guys started out with fairly good try scoring rates.
Joe Rokocoko - 24 tries in first 16 tests
Julian Savea - 29 tries in first 25 tests
Tana Umaga - 22 tries in first 24 tests
Jonah Lomu - 14 tries in first 15 tests
Christian Cullen - 23 tries in first 23 Tests
Doug Howlett - 10 tries in first 11 Tests
Jeff Wilson - 20 tries in first 24 testsDo/Should we start automatically dropping wingers at 20 tests?
Quite sweeping statement, but it seems the 'skill/pace wingers' (Goldie/Dougie) maintained rate better than the physical freaks (Jonah/Bus/Rocket)?
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@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
having watched teh last two Bok tests it would be an enormously stupid error to pick an inferior all-round player just to negate one part of what the opposition does, and not look to making more of what we do well.
I wouldn't have Bridge in the 23, he is unnecessary.
We have a team full of finishers. We want someone who can create the opportunities.
well put, i really do miss people like B & C smith (and obviously others), sure they finished a lot themselves but i most fondly remember them just making those breaks/half beaks that then had two or three other feed off and finish
Our current four wings are scoring tries at almost unprecedented rates.
Rieko 30/42
Even the much maligned George 12/15
Will 11/8
Sevu 10/13TOTAL 63 tries 78 tests 0.8 tries per test.
Doug Howlett got 49/62 at 0.79
Cully got 46/58 at 0.79
Goldie got 44/60 at 0.73
Big Jules got 46/64at 0.72
Joe Rok got 46/69 at 0.66
Jonah got 37/63 at 0.58
Bender got 39/84 at 0.46
Tana got 36/74 at 0.48Different eras ... you can prove anything with stats but ...
Some of those guys (Tana, Bender, Cullen, Goldie?) were not pure wingers or moved.
Plus you are comparing current AB's in early career vs "greats" at career-end (Savea, Sivivatu, Roks, Bender etc would have amazing stats at 10, 20, 30 tests, yeah?)
Plus DC and Merthens were certainly better goal-kickers than we have now. DC taking a 3 from 40m was a pretty sure option vs say BB?
Maybe tactically defenses are far better organized so now ... proportionally meaning the risk/reward of going wide with the right timing becomes the best (often only?) try scoring option vs 15-20 years ago when defenses were more porous across the field. Witness all the cross kicking now too which is exactly this.
You triggered me :face_with_tears_of_joy: :face_with_tears_of_joy:
@l_n_p Get ready for more triggering when I start pointing out some very good AB wingers that our newest guys are approaching or already gone past.
Against the newer guys is that they're probably playing less minutes per test than the older guys.
There was an article going into last weekend's test that said Will Jordan was scoring at a rate of one try every 27 minutes - which is 3 per test if he was playing the full match.
@No-Quarter Eat your heart out Cully!
(I'm pretty surprised that you didn't trigger Nepia's bat signal with the implication that Mitch might have done the right thing in axing a waning player after his knee injuries.....). There - that should brighten the skies of Gotham City! -
@daffy-jaffy said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
7 Albertus Smith, 6 Siyamthanda Kolisi
Kwagga Smith + Kolisi = Boks trying to speed the game up, or perhaps Mostert has just been shit at blindside.
@frank said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@daffy-jaffy said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
7 Albertus Smith, 6 Siyamthanda Kolisi
Kwagga Smith + Kolisi = Boks trying to speed the game up, or perhaps Mostert has just been shit at blindside.
Three backs on the bench.
Looks like they're reacting to the speed that we play at.
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@l_n_p Get ready for more triggering when I start pointing out some very good AB wingers that our newest guys are approaching or already gone past.
Against the newer guys is that they're probably playing less minutes per test than the older guys.
There was an article going into last weekend's test that said Will Jordan was scoring at a rate of one try every 27 minutes - which is 3 per test if he was playing the full match.
@No-Quarter Eat your heart out Cully!
(I'm pretty surprised that you didn't trigger Nepia's bat signal with the implication that Mitch might have done the right thing in axing a waning player after his knee injuries.....). There - that should brighten the skies of Gotham City!@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p Get ready for more triggering when I start pointing out some very good AB wingers that our newest guys are approaching or already gone past.
Against the newer guys is that they're probably playing less minutes per test than the older guys.
There was an article going into last weekend's test that said Will Jordan was scoring at a rate of one try every 27 minutes - which is 3 per test if he was playing the full match.
English WUM mode onThe problem is that all your
flashy fast-boys with their nice hairdosoutside back talent now aim to play anywhere else but wing, like 10/15 or 13, meaningbog-standard averageexcellent, reliable, hard-working wingerslike George Bridgehave to play there.Obviously there is a need in NZ to look at
raiding the South Seas Islands againinternal talent development channels for future stars at wing.:winking_face: :winking_face:
... Wing is never the problem area for the AB's.
Shag changing wingers for the RWC 2019 just seemed like he'd run out of ideas and was rolling the dice a bit.
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@frank said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@daffy-jaffy said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
7 Albertus Smith, 6 Siyamthanda Kolisi
Kwagga Smith + Kolisi = Boks trying to speed the game up, or perhaps Mostert has just been shit at blindside.
Siya isn’t up to speed, but not the done thing to bench him.
@pakman said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@frank said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@daffy-jaffy said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
7 Albertus Smith, 6 Siyamthanda Kolisi
Kwagga Smith + Kolisi = Boks trying to speed the game up, or perhaps Mostert has just been shit at blindside.
Siya isn’t up to speed, but not the done thing to bench him.
I think the game has already sped up worldwide from the new refereeing interpretations at the ruck.
My take, the Boks just found this out big-time with two losses to Australia and are having to adapt on the fly. 7 for the Boks is blindside too isn't it? Kwagga at blindside?? ... wow.
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@l_n_p Get ready for more triggering when I start pointing out some very good AB wingers that our newest guys are approaching or already gone past.
Against the newer guys is that they're probably playing less minutes per test than the older guys.
There was an article going into last weekend's test that said Will Jordan was scoring at a rate of one try every 27 minutes - which is 3 per test if he was playing the full match.
@No-Quarter Eat your heart out Cully!
(I'm pretty surprised that you didn't trigger Nepia's bat signal with the implication that Mitch might have done the right thing in axing a waning player after his knee injuries.....). There - that should brighten the skies of Gotham City!@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p Get ready for more triggering when I start pointing out some very good AB wingers that our newest guys are approaching or already gone past.
Against the newer guys is that they're probably playing less minutes per test than the older guys.
There was an article going into last weekend's test that said Will Jordan was scoring at a rate of one try every 27 minutes - which is 3 per test if he was playing the full match.
@No-Quarter Eat your heart out Cully!
(I'm pretty surprised that you didn't trigger Nepia's bat signal with the implication that Mitch might have done the right thing in axing a waning player after his knee injuries.....). There - that should brighten the skies of Gotham City!yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
I think its just a different approach now days. Where as i feel previously we'd see more tries built on several smaller breaks joined together and so you needed a couple of finishes and several "creators"
now we see finishes looking to score from a long way out and from almost any situation and so several finishes works well
none of that probably made sense and was also probably wrong
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@bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
looks a bit lightweight for centre
Huh, go figure. I don't see him as smaller than any of our other midfielders.
But if being too "lightweight" gets him back on the wing where he's a much more dangerous player, then I'll back it.
I'm happy to be proven wrong, and it's just based off a camera to the side, his neck didn't look as thick and robust as other midfielders (built up for collisions)...I didn't notice any weakness or frailty in tackling or running but I didn't see very much of him on camera...
Fuck it made me laugh finding this after getting curious on your observation - look at the size of his fucking neck!
I would've picked him as a similar size to Rieko.
Na just looks big cos of small shoulders
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@majorrage said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
Those odds are nuts, but they are correct if we play like have last few weeks and SA play like they did against Australia.
The fitness is the big thing they can't change in a week. SA didnt' look able to cope with the pace of the game, and if they can't slow it down, that's going to cost them.
Should be titanic. I can't wait.
https://sarugbystats.co.za/south-africa-vs-new-zealand/ has NZ with 59 wins, SA 36 and 4 draws. Way more one sided than it used to be -- in the pro era it was 41-15-1 to NZ.I'm old enough to remember when they had a winning record against us.
But quite frankly I was just a little too young to remember 1976 in great detail (i recall I watched in the early morning but not much more) and Gert Bezuidenhout who was apparently indicative of much of the reason they did win more often in the Republic.
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@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p Get ready for more triggering when I start pointing out some very good AB wingers that our newest guys are approaching or already gone past.
Against the newer guys is that they're probably playing less minutes per test than the older guys.
There was an article going into last weekend's test that said Will Jordan was scoring at a rate of one try every 27 minutes - which is 3 per test if he was playing the full match.
@No-Quarter Eat your heart out Cully!
(I'm pretty surprised that you didn't trigger Nepia's bat signal with the implication that Mitch might have done the right thing in axing a waning player after his knee injuries.....). There - that should brighten the skies of Gotham City!yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
I think its just a different approach now days. Where as i feel previously we'd see more tries built on several smaller breaks joined together and so you needed a couple of finishes and several "creators"
now we see finishes looking to score from a long way out and from almost any situation and so several finishes works well
none of that probably made sense and was also probably wrong
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
thats semantics on how you use the term world class...so you could have let it pass
my post was a reply to the comment our current wingers are scoring at a fantastic rate, Marika Koroibete for example has scored 14 in 35 according to google, so less than ours, i think even bridge would probably comfortably be in the conversations for several international teams, just because we have very high expectations doesnt mean theyre not good on a more global scale
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
thats semantics on how you use the term world class...so you could have let it pass
my post was a reply to the comment our current wingers are scoring at a fantastic rate, Marika Koroibete for example has scored 14 in 35 according to google, so less than ours, i think even bridge would probably comfortably be in the conversations for several international teams, just because we have very high expectations doesnt mean theyre not good on a more global scale
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
thats semantics on how you use the term world class...so you could have let it pass
my post was a reply to the comment our current wingers are scoring at a fantastic rate, Marika Koroibete for example has scored 14 in 35 according to google, so less than ours, i think even bridge would probably comfortably be in the conversations for several international teams, just because we have very high expectations doesnt mean theyre not good on a more global scale
I know, I said sorry in advance ...
If you listen to Australian fans after any win, at least 50% of their side is world class
I'm harsh on how I view world-class but at least I define it, because the term gets thrown around like confetti.
Almost any AB who's good enough to get even 10-20 caps would probably start in at least half the top tier sides, that's pretty much a given for me at all times.
Does that make (say) Victor Vito or Steven Luatua or Adam Thompson world class? Not for me ...
