All Blacks vs Springboks I
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
Rees-Zammit is potential only and has less of a test match body of work than Jordan.
Watson is terrible and the Boks proved that demoattably.
Cheslin, Rieko and probably Josh Adams in the order
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit
Are these the guys that weren't even considered the best wingers in the British isles?
@bones I won't argue it ... pick your 6, I did say mine were "top of the head".
But my point was more that if you take a view that "world class" is really the cream of the crop internationally (which I do), I'm not sure currently a NZ winger makes it, apart from Rieko.
For clarity, I'd say Retallick, Whitelock, Smith are undoubtably world class. Probably BB, certainly he has been, and on form like Pumas 2 he is worldclass ...
Akira and Paps look like they have potential to be world class pretty soon.
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@bones I won't argue it ... pick your 6, I did say mine were "top of the head".
But my point was more that if you take a view that "world class" is really the cream of the crop internationally (which I do), I'm not sure currently a NZ winger makes it, apart from Rieko.
For clarity, I'd say Retallick, Whitelock, Smith are undoubtably world class. Probably BB, certainly he has been, and on form like Pumas 2 he is worldclass ...
Akira and Paps look like they have potential to be world class pretty soon.
@l_n_p i actually thought of a better way to word my thoughts, world class being those good enough to play on the world stage, ie international rugby
Those standing head and shoulders above other international players i would refer to as world beaters or something similar
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@l_n_p i actually thought of a better way to word my thoughts, world class being those good enough to play on the world stage, ie international rugby
Those standing head and shoulders above other international players i would refer to as world beaters or something similar
@kiwiwomble We need formal rules on this, standardized across rugby forums and boards.
A citing panel for misuse of terms ...
The aussies will ask for exemptions so more of their players can be "world beaters" ... :face_with_tears_of_joy: :face_with_tears_of_joy:
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@kiwiwomble We need formal rules on this, standardized across rugby forums and boards.
A citing panel for misuse of terms ...
The aussies will ask for exemptions so more of their players can be "world beaters" ... :face_with_tears_of_joy: :face_with_tears_of_joy:
@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....
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@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....
Well there are a whole lot of beaters on here.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:
Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:
Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.
Willie Heinz ? Riki Flutey ?
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:
Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.
Willie Heinz ? Riki Flutey ?
@cgrant said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:
Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.
Willie Heinz ? Riki Flutey ?
Let's not forget Henry Paul, Thomas Waldrom.
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@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....
Tbh I actually did a serious terminology-agreement exercise like this with a huge and very passionate international community on Twitter (not rugby related).
1 slide, with 20 definitions and supporting examples.
F*ck it was SO hard going at first because so many can take it personally ... understandably in the area I was doing it ... until they really see you're open and trying to improve communication and establish common understandings, then you'd start to get so much really thoughtful feedback.
Took months, god knows how many iterations ... retweet, get more inputs, repeat.
In short, thanks but not again. Don't let me stop you though ... :winking_face:
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....
Tbh I actually did a serious terminology-agreement exercise like this with a huge and very passionate international community on Twitter (not rugby related).
1 slide, with 20 definitions and supporting examples.
F*ck it was SO hard going at first because so many can take it personally ... understandably in the area I was doing it ... until they really see you're open and trying to improve communication and establish common understandings, then you'd start to get so much really thoughtful feedback.
Took months, god knows how many iterations ... retweet, get more inputs, repeat.
In short, thanks but not again. Don't let me stop you though ... :winking_face:
@l_n_p im not doing it! it was your idea!
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@cgrant said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:
Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.
Willie Heinz ? Riki Flutey ?
Let's not forget Henry Paul, Thomas Waldrom.
@bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@cgrant said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:
Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.
Willie Heinz ? Riki Flutey ?
Let's not forget Henry Paul, Thomas Waldrom.
I think you're re-inforcing @Kiwiwomble's point George Bridge could just walk into a lot of Tier 1 international sides. I mean think about it, Ireland have James Lowe playing for them now ...?
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Jesus there some clueless comments here, not all of them, but these leapt out. More stuff to be up on the changing room walls
This is not the same team that won the World Cup. Let's be very clear on that. They've lost a number of their players who have headed off overseas
SA freely pick from anywhere
And two years ago, they were playing a lot more open and expansive rugby than this team is showing us this year."
Obviously didn't watch the semi versus Wales
The fullback is fine; Willie le Roux is a very good player
Was
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Jesus there some clueless comments here, not all of them, but these leapt out. More stuff to be up on the changing room walls
This is not the same team that won the World Cup. Let's be very clear on that. They've lost a number of their players who have headed off overseas
SA freely pick from anywhere
And two years ago, they were playing a lot more open and expansive rugby than this team is showing us this year."
Obviously didn't watch the semi versus Wales
The fullback is fine; Willie le Roux is a very good player
Was
@machpants said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
Jesus there some clueless comments here, not all of them, but these leapt out. More stuff to be up on the changing room walls
This is not the same team that won the World Cup. Let's be very clear on that. They've lost a number of their players who have headed off overseas
SA freely pick from anywhere
And two years ago, they were playing a lot more open and expansive rugby than this team is showing us this year."
Obviously didn't watch the semi versus Wales
The fullback is fine; Willie le Roux is a very good player
Was
Is.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/rugby-championship-former-all-blacks-coach-laurie-mains-reveals-reasons-behind-springboks-decline/NGCSTIXCTDWPQ56G4FNNO5ELSQ/
"Willie le Roux is a very good player" -
Very detailed analysis from Nick Bishop on The Roar, focussing on the breakdown, refereeing and Rassie. https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/09/22/how-the-springboks-hit-an-english-speed-bump-at-suncorp/
"Carley ... religiously applied the credo of the English Premiership; first, clear the tackler away; second, ensure that the first arriving defender is fully supporting their own bodyweight; third, show zero tolerance for cynical play. The outcome in the second half of the 2020 English Premiership season was a glut of ‘LQB’ (lightning-quick ball) for the attack, and ‘LQT’ (lightning-quick turnovers) for the defence. Both sides at Suncorp Stadium looked surprised to find themselves playing under a new set of rules, but it was Australia who adapted far more quickly and easily to them."
I'm pleasantly surprised to see English refs leading the charge on this and pushing it. I thought the Kiwi refs started strong on this then backed off (a little) during SRA and SRTT.
Plays massively into the strengths of the ABs who expect everyone from 1-15 to be able to win turnover ball at the breakdown. Aussies started seeing it in in SR TT and have adapted fast.
For England I expect Eddie may play a few combinations at 6-7-8 and lock with Itoje and Tom Curry the only given starters.
No law change that I know of, just referring existing laws in a better way :thumbs_up:
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Very detailed analysis from Nick Bishop on The Roar, focussing on the breakdown, refereeing and Rassie. https://www.theroar.com.au/2021/09/22/how-the-springboks-hit-an-english-speed-bump-at-suncorp/
"Carley ... religiously applied the credo of the English Premiership; first, clear the tackler away; second, ensure that the first arriving defender is fully supporting their own bodyweight; third, show zero tolerance for cynical play. The outcome in the second half of the 2020 English Premiership season was a glut of ‘LQB’ (lightning-quick ball) for the attack, and ‘LQT’ (lightning-quick turnovers) for the defence. Both sides at Suncorp Stadium looked surprised to find themselves playing under a new set of rules, but it was Australia who adapted far more quickly and easily to them."
I'm pleasantly surprised to see English refs leading the charge on this and pushing it. I thought the Kiwi refs started strong on this then backed off (a little) during SRA and SRTT.
Plays massively into the strengths of the ABs who expect everyone from 1-15 to be able to win turnover ball at the breakdown. Aussies started seeing it in in SR TT and have adapted fast.
For England I expect Eddie may play a few combinations at 6-7-8 and lock with Itoje and Tom Curry the only given starters.
No law change that I know of, just referring existing laws in a better way :thumbs_up:
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@l_n_p I liked the article, read it last night. Interesting insights
The Lions really didn't try to play much rugby against the Boks. Australia did, and it showed. Fitness the big issue for the Boks this weekend I suspect
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p I liked the article, read it last night. Interesting insights
The Lions really didn't try to play much rugby against the Boks. Australia did, and it showed. Fitness the big issue for the Boks this weekend I suspect
That article was a cut above, with actually relevant clips! Impressed.
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@l_n_p I liked the article, read it last night. Interesting insights
The Lions really didn't try to play much rugby against the Boks. Australia did, and it showed. Fitness the big issue for the Boks this weekend I suspect
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p I liked the article, read it last night. Interesting insights
The Lions really didn't try to play much rugby against the Boks. Australia did, and it showed. Fitness the big issue for the Boks this weekend I suspect
It's going to be very tactical with the AB's wanting the ball in play, the Boks quite the opposite! Probably a fast but conservative game for the first 50 at least to wear out the Boks - a lot of kicking deep for space from the AB playmakers. Down the middle if needed.
I always remember that RWC2015 semi-final where it could easily have gone both ways but logically I can't imagine how the Boks can make such huge adjustments in a week, plus AB coaches can build from watching Australia's victory.
Referee is English again.
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When I predicted the Boks will lose to the Wallabies, everybody had a laugh. Well I predict the Boks have a very good chance on Saturday. All the signs are there for an upset. Never write them off. They got nothing to lose.
@oompb said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
When I predicted the Boks will lose to the Wallabies, everybody had a laugh. Well I predict the Boks have a very good chance on Saturday. All the signs are there for an upset. Never write them off. They got nothing to lose.
I laughed at your first prediction but acknowledge thus week's.
