All Blacks vs Springboks I
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@l_n_p Get ready for more triggering when I start pointing out some very good AB wingers that our newest guys are approaching or already gone past.
Against the newer guys is that they're probably playing less minutes per test than the older guys.
There was an article going into last weekend's test that said Will Jordan was scoring at a rate of one try every 27 minutes - which is 3 per test if he was playing the full match.
@No-Quarter Eat your heart out Cully!
(I'm pretty surprised that you didn't trigger Nepia's bat signal with the implication that Mitch might have done the right thing in axing a waning player after his knee injuries.....). There - that should brighten the skies of Gotham City!@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p Get ready for more triggering when I start pointing out some very good AB wingers that our newest guys are approaching or already gone past.
Against the newer guys is that they're probably playing less minutes per test than the older guys.
There was an article going into last weekend's test that said Will Jordan was scoring at a rate of one try every 27 minutes - which is 3 per test if he was playing the full match.
@No-Quarter Eat your heart out Cully!
(I'm pretty surprised that you didn't trigger Nepia's bat signal with the implication that Mitch might have done the right thing in axing a waning player after his knee injuries.....). There - that should brighten the skies of Gotham City!yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
I think its just a different approach now days. Where as i feel previously we'd see more tries built on several smaller breaks joined together and so you needed a couple of finishes and several "creators"
now we see finishes looking to score from a long way out and from almost any situation and so several finishes works well
none of that probably made sense and was also probably wrong
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@bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@bones said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
looks a bit lightweight for centre
Huh, go figure. I don't see him as smaller than any of our other midfielders.
But if being too "lightweight" gets him back on the wing where he's a much more dangerous player, then I'll back it.
I'm happy to be proven wrong, and it's just based off a camera to the side, his neck didn't look as thick and robust as other midfielders (built up for collisions)...I didn't notice any weakness or frailty in tackling or running but I didn't see very much of him on camera...
Fuck it made me laugh finding this after getting curious on your observation - look at the size of his fucking neck!
I would've picked him as a similar size to Rieko.
Na just looks big cos of small shoulders
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@majorrage said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
Those odds are nuts, but they are correct if we play like have last few weeks and SA play like they did against Australia.
The fitness is the big thing they can't change in a week. SA didnt' look able to cope with the pace of the game, and if they can't slow it down, that's going to cost them.
Should be titanic. I can't wait.
https://sarugbystats.co.za/south-africa-vs-new-zealand/ has NZ with 59 wins, SA 36 and 4 draws. Way more one sided than it used to be -- in the pro era it was 41-15-1 to NZ.I'm old enough to remember when they had a winning record against us.
But quite frankly I was just a little too young to remember 1976 in great detail (i recall I watched in the early morning but not much more) and Gert Bezuidenhout who was apparently indicative of much of the reason they did win more often in the Republic.
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@chris-b said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p Get ready for more triggering when I start pointing out some very good AB wingers that our newest guys are approaching or already gone past.
Against the newer guys is that they're probably playing less minutes per test than the older guys.
There was an article going into last weekend's test that said Will Jordan was scoring at a rate of one try every 27 minutes - which is 3 per test if he was playing the full match.
@No-Quarter Eat your heart out Cully!
(I'm pretty surprised that you didn't trigger Nepia's bat signal with the implication that Mitch might have done the right thing in axing a waning player after his knee injuries.....). There - that should brighten the skies of Gotham City!yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
I think its just a different approach now days. Where as i feel previously we'd see more tries built on several smaller breaks joined together and so you needed a couple of finishes and several "creators"
now we see finishes looking to score from a long way out and from almost any situation and so several finishes works well
none of that probably made sense and was also probably wrong
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
thats semantics on how you use the term world class...so you could have let it pass
my post was a reply to the comment our current wingers are scoring at a fantastic rate, Marika Koroibete for example has scored 14 in 35 according to google, so less than ours, i think even bridge would probably comfortably be in the conversations for several international teams, just because we have very high expectations doesnt mean theyre not good on a more global scale
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
thats semantics on how you use the term world class...so you could have let it pass
my post was a reply to the comment our current wingers are scoring at a fantastic rate, Marika Koroibete for example has scored 14 in 35 according to google, so less than ours, i think even bridge would probably comfortably be in the conversations for several international teams, just because we have very high expectations doesnt mean theyre not good on a more global scale
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
thats semantics on how you use the term world class...so you could have let it pass
my post was a reply to the comment our current wingers are scoring at a fantastic rate, Marika Koroibete for example has scored 14 in 35 according to google, so less than ours, i think even bridge would probably comfortably be in the conversations for several international teams, just because we have very high expectations doesnt mean theyre not good on a more global scale
I know, I said sorry in advance ...
If you listen to Australian fans after any win, at least 50% of their side is world class
I'm harsh on how I view world-class but at least I define it, because the term gets thrown around like confetti.
Almost any AB who's good enough to get even 10-20 caps would probably start in at least half the top tier sides, that's pretty much a given for me at all times.
Does that make (say) Victor Vito or Steven Luatua or Adam Thompson world class? Not for me ...
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
thats semantics on how you use the term world class...so you could have let it pass
my post was a reply to the comment our current wingers are scoring at a fantastic rate, Marika Koroibete for example has scored 14 in 35 according to google, so less than ours, i think even bridge would probably comfortably be in the conversations for several international teams, just because we have very high expectations doesnt mean theyre not good on a more global scale
I know, I said sorry in advance ...
If you listen to Australian fans after any win, at least 50% of their side is world class
I'm harsh on how I view world-class but at least I define it, because the term gets thrown around like confetti.
Almost any AB who's good enough to get even 10-20 caps would probably start in at least half the top tier sides, that's pretty much a given for me at all times.
Does that make (say) Victor Vito or Steven Luatua or Adam Thompson world class? Not for me ...
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
thats semantics on how you use the term world class...so you could have let it pass
my post was a reply to the comment our current wingers are scoring at a fantastic rate, Marika Koroibete for example has scored 14 in 35 according to google, so less than ours, i think even bridge would probably comfortably be in the conversations for several international teams, just because we have very high expectations doesnt mean theyre not good on a more global scale
I know, I said sorry in advance ...
If you listen to Australian fans after any win, at least 50% of their side is world class
I'm harsh on how I view world-class but at least I define it, because the term gets thrown around like confetti.
Almost any AB who's good enough to get even 10-20 caps would probably start in at least half the top tier sides, that's pretty much a given for me at all times.
Does that make (say) Victor Vito or Steven Luatua or Adam Thompson world class? Not for me ...
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the current guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
thats semantics on how you use the term world class...so you could have let it pass
my post was a reply to the comment our current wingers are scoring at a fantastic rate, Marika Koroibete for example has scored 14 in 35 according to google, so less than ours, i think even bridge would probably comfortably be in the conversations for several international teams, just because we have very high expectations doesnt mean theyre not good on a more global scale
I know, I said sorry in advance ...
If you listen to Australian fans after any win, at least 50% of their side is world class
I'm harsh on how I view world-class but at least I define it, because the term gets thrown around like confetti.
Almost any AB who's good enough to get even 10-20 caps would probably start in at least half the top tier sides, that's pretty much a given for me at all times.
Does that make (say) Victor Vito or Steven Luatua or Adam Thompson world class? Not for me ...
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the current guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:
Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
yeah, my comment earlier was definitely not an attempt to say the current wingers weren't good, they in general are world class by most standards
No sorry, I can't let that pass. Rieko aside, they're good international class with future upside, no more.
World class for me means you'd make a world #1 23 or world #2 23 squad so six top wingers maximum.
Top six wings off the top of my head ... Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit, Rieko Ioane, Cheslin Kolbe, maybe Marika Koroibete, + 1 more (I would have said Jonny May a year ago).
Go on, give me your top 6 wings worldwide then ... :winking_face:
Rees-Zammit is potential only and has less of a test match body of work than Jordan.
Watson is terrible and the Boks proved that demoattably.
Cheslin, Rieko and probably Josh Adams in the order
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
Anthony Watson, Louis Rees-Zammit
Are these the guys that weren't even considered the best wingers in the British isles?
@bones I won't argue it ... pick your 6, I did say mine were "top of the head".
But my point was more that if you take a view that "world class" is really the cream of the crop internationally (which I do), I'm not sure currently a NZ winger makes it, apart from Rieko.
For clarity, I'd say Retallick, Whitelock, Smith are undoubtably world class. Probably BB, certainly he has been, and on form like Pumas 2 he is worldclass ...
Akira and Paps look like they have potential to be world class pretty soon.
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@bones I won't argue it ... pick your 6, I did say mine were "top of the head".
But my point was more that if you take a view that "world class" is really the cream of the crop internationally (which I do), I'm not sure currently a NZ winger makes it, apart from Rieko.
For clarity, I'd say Retallick, Whitelock, Smith are undoubtably world class. Probably BB, certainly he has been, and on form like Pumas 2 he is worldclass ...
Akira and Paps look like they have potential to be world class pretty soon.
@l_n_p i actually thought of a better way to word my thoughts, world class being those good enough to play on the world stage, ie international rugby
Those standing head and shoulders above other international players i would refer to as world beaters or something similar
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@l_n_p i actually thought of a better way to word my thoughts, world class being those good enough to play on the world stage, ie international rugby
Those standing head and shoulders above other international players i would refer to as world beaters or something similar
@kiwiwomble We need formal rules on this, standardized across rugby forums and boards.
A citing panel for misuse of terms ...
The aussies will ask for exemptions so more of their players can be "world beaters" ... :face_with_tears_of_joy: :face_with_tears_of_joy:
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@kiwiwomble We need formal rules on this, standardized across rugby forums and boards.
A citing panel for misuse of terms ...
The aussies will ask for exemptions so more of their players can be "world beaters" ... :face_with_tears_of_joy: :face_with_tears_of_joy:
@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....
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@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....
Well there are a whole lot of beaters on here.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:
Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:
Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.
Willie Heinz ? Riki Flutey ?
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:
Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.
Willie Heinz ? Riki Flutey ?
@cgrant said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
fair enough, im just the other side of the coin, we've been bless with several players that would walk into the GOAT category, i try not to judge the guys too much just because theyre not stacking up to those GOATs
I think we're aligned on how good a player even a ... relative to other ABs ... "average" AB is, in US corporate speak :thumbs_up:
Totally. In Europe, step back a bit and think how many goodish SR players (who were never even really close to AB selection) have carved out international careers. Wales, Ireland, Scotland especially. England less so, only Brad Shields for brief period comes to mind.
Willie Heinz ? Riki Flutey ?
Let's not forget Henry Paul, Thomas Waldrom.
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@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p ...im sure getting agreement across the whole forum shouldn't be too hard.....
Tbh I actually did a serious terminology-agreement exercise like this with a huge and very passionate international community on Twitter (not rugby related).
1 slide, with 20 definitions and supporting examples.
F*ck it was SO hard going at first because so many can take it personally ... understandably in the area I was doing it ... until they really see you're open and trying to improve communication and establish common understandings, then you'd start to get so much really thoughtful feedback.
Took months, god knows how many iterations ... retweet, get more inputs, repeat.
In short, thanks but not again. Don't let me stop you though ... :winking_face:
